Hungarian neo-nazis on the attack

For quite a few days now the media has closely followed a story about a ticket office and atrocities against it by a shadowy extreme right-wing group, perhaps coordinated by a blogger who calls himself Tomcat. The events began when a young woman went to a ticket office in the district known as Újlipótváros. Újlipótváros used to be part of Lipótváros, that is downtown Pest. The old Jewish quarters were also situated in Lipótváros, and therefore in certain circles the name of the district became virtually synonymous with Jewishness. In any case the young woman wanted to purchase a ticket for a rock concert given by a group of far-right musicians. The clerk had never heard of the group but told the woman that she would check. After she found the group's name in her computer she told the customer the price: the cost of the ticket plus a 100 Ft handling fee. The young woman became enraged by the extra cost, complained to her ideological friends, and told them that the people at the ticket office had called her a fascist because she wanted to buy a ticket for this particular concert. The result: a Molotov cocktail in the middle of the night. The owners quickly fixed up the place, but by that time Tomcat and his friends had a new plan. Their idea was to bombard the ticket office with requests for tickets for another right-wing concert whose tickets are not even available through ticket offices.

However, a group of people who had had enough of the radical right's incredible performances of late came to the ticket office's rescue. At least 500 people gathered to defend the ticket office against approximately 50 neo-nazis. When I used the word "neo-nazi" I'm not exaggerating. I saw one young guy in a T-shirt with Hitler's picture on it! I really wonder whether these ignorant youngsters actually know anything about Hitler and the Third Reich. I'm not at all sure. Tomcat, camera in hand, was taking videos from the second floor of a nearby house, but the only thing he could see was that his friends disappeared when the police arrived. Interestingly enough the police, following Hungarian law, started proceedings against both groups. The demonstration was what the police call a "flash mob." A demonstration that begins spontaneously. It is unannounced. According to Hungarian law any demonstration must be announced to the police three days before the event.

Some of the demonstrators were obviously frustrated that they couldn't attack the ticket office due to the counter-demonstrators and the police. Two diehards decided to return to the scene. In the dead of night they broke the shop windows of the ticket office. However, the police were on the lookout and the perpetrators were arrested a few minutes later.

Undeterred, Tomcat and his friends are organizing a new demonstration. The anti-fascists are also organizing and tomorrow the scene will be repeated. However, this time the counter-demonstrators have a powerful ally: the prime minister himself. He announced his intention to join the counter-demonstrators and asked the other party leaders and the president to join him. Ibolya Dávid of MDF has already announced that she will not be there. She claimed that it was the police's job to keep order. I'm almost certain that Viktor Orbán will not show up. As for Sólyom, I highly doubt it.

Comments

[Varangy]

****saw one young guy in a T-shirt with Hitler's picture on it! I really wonder whether these ignorant youngsters actually know anything about Hitler and the Third Reich. I'm not at all sure.****

Unfortunately, I think they know enough about Hitler to know why they wear t-shirts such as the one you described.

Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?

http://www.bornintheussr.com/s7a.jpg

Or Che t-shits?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/Tshirts/26572~Che-Guevara-Posters.jpg

Equally as offensive? Or not so much?

[kincs]

Apparently Sólyom is going to turn up just long enough to make a statement to the crowd. It will be a healthy development if he does.

[Adrian]

The coverage on HVG was the second piece of good news I have had on the rise of facism in Hungary, the first being the school kids ridiculing the Magyar Guarda at hősök tere. "Mi is itthon vagyunk", at last the silent majority of Hungarians - who are frightened of reprisals - are expressing their opinion.

Varangy asks a very pertinent question about people's emotional reaction to the symbols of totalitarianism. I threw a hiszti in class on Monday because my Szálasi admiring student was sporting an arrow cross. Eva, these kids do know who Hitler was, and they admire what he achieved - for them, the holocaust is unfinished business, still so many gypsies to kill, - oh, and the disabled.

The cause of my emotion is the threat to my children as not "real hungarians". my middle child goes to an ovoda that sits between two disused synagogues. It used to be a Jewish primary school, everyday I am reminded of what happened to the kids attending that school in 1944, and it frightens me.

Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom. Largely, I think this is because as a Briton, my experience of the Soviet Union is different to that of those Hungarians who suffered under Soviet occupation. But, I am also not so upset by the use of the swatiska in the UK, where both symbols can be used freely. I think what is driving my emotional reaction to the arrow cross is not what happened in the middle of the 20th century, but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.

[Lia]

"The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does." Well said, Adrian.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

Well, Solyom will indeed be making an appearance, much to your chagrin, but nowhere in your post did you mention that György Szabó, a Fidesz representative in the local government was one of the main organizers of the anti-fascist rally. Not to say Fidesz is all great, but for some reason I can't help but think that wasn't accidentally left out.

I recall late last year when the parliamentary parties held a joint international press conference, and Gyurcsány had the rug pulled out from under him by (I think) Bálint Magyar, who said "Yes, Hungary has fascists, but there is no fascist threat." Suddenly Gyurcsány had to stop screaming fascism when his coalition partners said they were worried about it.

The people on the political fringes are always louder when the economy is bad. Once it picks up, they'll disappear back under the rocks they belong.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

The end of my second paragraph should read:

Suddenly Gyurcsány had to stop screaming about fascism when his coalition partners said they weren't worried about it.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Our Sixth Colume (Hatodik Oszlop): "Well, Solyom will indeed be making an appearance, much to your chagrin."

He visited the ticket office this morning. The demonstration will be in the afternoon. Typical Sólyom move.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pardon: column.

[kincs]

Spineless. He wants to be seen to be showing concern but won't actually go out on a limb. Lacks the courage of his convictions.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

I'll give you that. Contrary to earlier reports, Solyom won't be going out in the afternoon, which I think is a bad move on his part.

On the other hand, György Szabó has received death threats for his stand against the far-right, and kudos to him for taking it.

Now if only Gyurcsány would stay away this afternoon, as an increasing chorus of voices are demanding him to. His presence transforms everything into a protest against himself, not the topic at hand.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Sixth Column: "On the other hand, György Szabó has received death threats for his stand against the far-right, and kudos to him for taking it."

I purposely didn't mention the organizers because it is not at all clear who organized it. Certainly not one person. Apparently, the organization began on the Internet (iwiw and Judapest sites). I read a description of the events by a participant who was somewhat surprised when Gyorgy Szabo appeared with a bullhorn. They didn't even know who he was. So, he may have joined the others, but it seems to me that it was a fairly spontaneous gathering. However, I'm glad that Mayor Szabo (Fidesz) did appear. It is certainly laudable especially given Fidesz's very ambiguous attitude concerning the far right.

[R.]

Sneaking around and breaking windows in the dead of night? Over a 100 ft service charge? Really? That's pathetic.

Isn't it funny how, when these shadowy groups show themselves by the light of day, they're just 50 cowards with silly haircuts and stupid clothes.

50 jerks demanding to buy tickets for a band playing music that originated in the United States! Ha ha ha! That's comedy.

[Laci]

Interesting how people just assume that the group are fascist "Tom Cat"
I have been listening to his comments and he actually stipulates he is not a Fascist, he is defending the Hungarians Rights which have been oppressed for many centuries, as soon as someone defends hungarians they are labelled as fascist, it's actually should be looked at without LEFt or Right wing views , but what he is saying has some hardsore truth to it, however the media is reporting what the agenda requires NWO.. sadly ..

[Viking]

It is good that we, finally, can see some action coming from the non-extreme parts of the society against these extremists. The escalation has though gone rather fast on the extremist-side and I do not think we have seen the end of the scaling-up and sophistication of the violent methods used by the extremists. We must understand that when people gone over the edge to start throw petrol bombs, then actual murders are close to happen.

It is a problem in a democratic society how to handle these so violent and anti-democratic groups. The main effort must though stay on to propagate good believes and a higher degree of tolerance among ordinary people. On the other hand we must also allow extreme opinions to be ventilated, even if it offends us, as long as the rules for expressing opinions are followed.

As an entrepreneur owning several stores in Bp I of course get scared by the idea, that next time they may choose one of my shops as target practice. They are worse than the Mafia because the Mafia often understand business, so you can normally strike a deal.

Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare me. A strong and hungry Russia do. It has nothing to do which ideology is in power in Russia. We have fought the Russian Empire for several hundreds of years and helped to make it big. Communism had nothing to do to make Russia big, so I really do not understand Varangy's fear for some outdated insignia.

I never see on Varangy's site any statements about fascism etc, every time he lashes out against Communists. And that is of course no inconsistency...

He probably has a formula for calculating how consistent he is in his arguments, you know -x%/(+-)y%.

[Laci]

Hungarians have had the raw deal in there own country, being oppressed by the minorities for centuries, there is no democracy while the media is reporting such rot!! If you would be here and witnessing how the Hungarians are being oppressed by the Jews Zion, whom have not only spread there control in this country but most of the World, then you would appreciate that there is a group who have the courage to stand up to the Zion Fascists.. These people are not part of a Fascist right wing group they are odinary Hungarian citizens, sick of the manipulation they have received for many years by the Jewish Socialists. Before moving to Hungary I never even considered how corrupt the Socialists Jews are, and living, seeing and experiencing life in Hungary slowly the truth unfolds, not like in the west how people are lead like sheep..Baa Baa

[R.]

@ Laci

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you believe all this, what does attacking a ticket office over a 100 ft. service charge do? Instead, why don't you take responsibility for yourself, stop blaming other people for your problems, and to quoth Shakespeare, "grow a pair, already"?

Seriously though, ticket offices the world around charge service fees. If this was really a problem, then these nationalist bands could easily get around that by only selling tickets at the door.

[Adrian]

Laci,

I agree that since 1526 Hungarians have had a raw deal, but this has been the result of geopolitics rather than zionist conspiracy and gypsy crime. Hungary has survived in the midst of three powerful and authoritarian empires. But now the people making decisions about Hungary are Hungarians. Check the result of the last referendum.

Many British people I know have as much concern as you over political lies and media manipulation - over the war in Iraq for example. But not many of them think the petrol bombs and death threats are an appropriate response to lies and manipulation.

Having heard tomcat on HVG, and having read about his other beliefs and activites I think he is a fascist. I agree with the definiton of fascism given by the historian Robert Paxton. He argues that because fascist policies have varied from place to place, fascism is best seen as a style of politics. A style that is primarily emotional and violent rather than rational and lawful. Paxton argues that fascism tries to engage the following "mobilising passions":

• a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;

• the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;

• the belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;

• dread of the group's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;

• the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary;

• the need for authority by natural leaders (always male), culminating in a national chief who alone is capable of incarnating the group's destiny;

• the superiority of the leader's instincts over abstract and universal reason;

• the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group's success;

• the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group's prowess within a Darwinian struggle.

If you think that Tomcat has been misrepresented by the media, or that his style of politics is substantially inconsistent with the description given above let me know.

[Varangy]

****Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom.****

@Adrian

You are no different than most people. The West (academia and media) has been complicit in soft-peddling Communism's horrors.

****...but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.****

Really? The hammer-and-sickle do not represent a threat to your values? Interesting. A couple things:

1) I think the swastika, hammer-and-sickle, Che images are all equally vile and offensive. Why? They clearly represent totalitarianism and murder.

See a quick take here:

http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/27405703

2) I don't think the arrow cross is a real threat to anyone today in Hungary. Yes, you get some wackjob neo-nazis all hyped up --- but this is not the 2nd coming of the 3rd Reich, so I think you can get your family out of the basement now.

3) While I do find the above three symbols offensive (and would not wear them), I DO NOT think that they should be outlawed for obvious free speech reasons.

****Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare me. A strong and hungry Russia do. It has nothing to do which ideology is in power in Russia. We have fought the Russian Empire for several hundreds of years and helped to make it big. Communism had nothing to do to make Russia big, so I really do not understand Varangy's fear for some outdated insignia.****

@Viking

I am going to chalk your misunderstanding of my comment down to English not being your mother tongue. I do not 'fear' the outdated insignia in any way, shape or form. However, just like the swastika, it represents death and oppression --- and just like the swastika, it should be reviled, (but note: not outlawed).

****I never see on Varangy's site any statements about fascism etc, every time he lashes out against Communists. And that is of course no inconsistency...****

It always amuses me when you, ironically, think you are being clever.

But I digress...

1) All the people I know would, rightfully, condemn fascism if we were to have a conversation about it -- that said, this not true of everyone's feelings about Communism. e.g. the author of this blog and yourself

2) I have spoken out against fascism. Quoting myself:

****My father also recounts how many did join out of principle (!), one of their neighbors in the village he grew up in was the local Nazi chief, after the war, he became the local Party chief.

Can you still not condemn a movement that openly accepted and courted former Nazis?****

From: http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/30621841

3) Lastly, you should know Communism and fascism are a false dichotomy. In sum, different sides of the same evil coin.

Read this piece here:

http://www.mises.org/story/1937

****When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?*****

[Varangy]

****Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom.****

@Adrian

You are no different than most people. The West (academia and media) has been complicit in soft-peddling Communism's horrors.

****...but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.****

Really? The hammer-and-sickle do not represent a threat to your values? Interesting. A couple things:

1) I think the swastika, hammer-and-sickle, Che images are all equally vile and offensive. Why? They clearly represent totalitarianism and murder.

See a quick take here:

http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/27405703

2) I don't think the arrow cross is a real threat to anyone today in Hungary. Yes, you get some wackjob neo-nazis all hyped up --- but this is not the 2nd coming of the 3rd Reich, so I think you can get your family out of the basement now.

3) While I do find the above three symbols offensive (and would not wear them), I DO NOT think that they should be outlawed for obvious free speech reasons.

****Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare me. A strong and hungry Russia do. It has nothing to do which ideology is in power in Russia. We have fought the Russian Empire for several hundreds of years and helped to make it big. Communism had nothing to do to make Russia big, so I really do not understand Varangy's fear for some outdated insignia.****

@Viking

I am going to chalk your misunderstanding of my comment down to English not being your mother tongue. I do not 'fear' the outdated insignia in any way, shape or form. However, just like the swastika, it represents death and oppression --- and just like the swastika, it should be reviled, (but note: not outlawed).

****I never see on Varangy's site any statements about fascism etc, every time he lashes out against Communists. And that is of course no inconsistency...****

It always amuses me when you, ironically, think you are being clever.

But I digress...

1) All the people I know would, rightfully, condemn fascism if we were to have a conversation about it -- that said, this not true of everyone's feelings about Communism. e.g. the author of this blog and yourself

2) I have spoken out against fascism. Quoting myself:

****My father also recounts how many did join out of principle (!), one of their neighbors in the village he grew up in was the local Nazi chief, after the war, he became the local Party chief.

Can you still not condemn a movement that openly accepted and courted former Nazis?****

From: http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/30621841

3) Lastly, you should know Communism and fascism are a false dichotomy. In sum, different sides of the same evil coin.

Read this piece here:

http://www.mises.org/story/1937

****When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?*****

[Varangy]

[Note: Did not mean to post twice. Browser hicough.]

But Eva, you continue to avoid my questions...but let me, out of courtesy, begin.

If it is not clear, and I apologize if it is not, I find swastika and Hitler images on t-shirts etc etc quite offensive for obvious reasons.

I ask you, politely, again:

Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?

http://www.bornintheussr.com/s7a.jpg

Or Che t-shits?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/Tshirts/26572~Che-Guevara-Posters.jpg

Equally as offensive? Or not so much?

[Pisteve]

And silly me tried to catch the number 79 trolleybus today!

[Viking]

Varangy wrote: "Equally as offensive? Or not so much?"
Is this the Eurovision Song Contest? Is there a point system? What is the criteria - number of deaths, that people who did not join the Party could not send their children to the University?

One persons direct experience of fascism (in any form, see Adrian's post) cannot be translated into another persons direct experience of communism (whatever it was, where ever it was).

They do though have at least some things in common and that is the lack of personal freedom, multi party-system and free elections.

In Hungary you had more Hungarians killed by the Fascists than Communists during the previous Century. I do count the several 100.000 Hungarians with current or previous Jewish religion (or same of their relatives had it) and the rather unknown number of Roma killed, as Hungarians. But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad.

Would Hungary been occupied by the Soviets and had its share of Communism if Hungary would not have attacked the Allied Forces? Does not the responsibility of the horrors of Communism lay within the Hungarian society? How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be "equally" bad as the Soviets?

Varangy mention his Father's remembering that the local Nazi chief became the local Commie boss - Of course, it is naturally. The Soviets had at least 3 reasons for that:
1) The Hungarian Communist Party was not big enough, so they could not fill all security-sensitive positions.

2) The old Arrow-Cross security people at least knew how to torture people, so the did not need any "on-the-job training".

3) It was important to get things working as soon as possible so firstly the Soviet occupation troops could be fed locally, taking down the demand on logistics, which the Soviets were not so good on anyway. Also it is better if the locals do their thing, so they do not start to resist against the occupation.

Also, for you information Varangy - the US did the same thing. Scientists, like Werner von Braun, were sent to US to work. A lot of local German Nazis were not prosecuted, but re-instated in local positions in West-Germany. This is one of the big differences with the current Administration in the US today and its "After-war"-policies in Iraq. They did what you want and look what happened, a total breakdown of law and order.

In Sweden it is actually in the Law that the Swedish Police and local Govt should stay on and continue its work as usual (as possible of course) after an occupation by a foreign force. The reason for this is to protect the civilians.

The above does not mean, even if I have no illusion that Varangy will interpret in that way, that I support any totalitarian ideology, call it what you want. But I do want to be able to define my own definition of what is totalitarianism. There is no objectivity out there, just a bunch of subjective thinking and analogue with that not all "terrorists" are "terrorists", what Varangy, Aemann and Kosa in Debrecen call dictatorship does not mean I call it that.

[Eva S. Balogh]

The toad:
"But Eva, you continue to avoid my questions...but let me, out of courtesy, begin. If it is not clear, and I apologize if it is not, I find swastika and Hitler images on t-shirts etc etc quite offensive for obvious reasons. I ask you, politely, again: Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?"

You don't seem to get it. I don't answer your stupid questions. That's all. I'm sure you know the joke about Móricka and what he has constantly on his mind. You're like that. Everything reminds you of communism. If there will be a communist threat in Hungary I will express my opinions but at the moment there is no such thing. On the other hand we have neo-nazis.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Laci: "Hungarians have had the raw deal in there own country, being oppressed by the minorities for centuries, there is no democracy while the media is reporting such rot!! If you would be here and witnessing how the Hungarians are being oppressed by the Jews Zion."

Until now at least we were free of this primitive antisemitism of the Hungarian far right. Now here it is. The civilized readers of this blog now can have a taste of its ideology. However, Laci, I wouldn't overdo it because there are consequences. At least on this blog. The Hungarian police might take the abuse, but I don't tolerate primitive rantings and ravings.

[Varangy]

****You don't seem to get it. I don't answer your stupid questions. That's all.****

@Eva

Ah! I thought you were above ad hominem? Actually, that isn't correct. You weren't above insulting my family.

Again, your evasiveness speaks volumes.

****I'm sure you know the joke about Móricka and what he has constantly on his mind.****

My Nagypapa constantly told us Móricka anecdotes. Good stuff.

****You're like that. Everything reminds you of communism. If there will be a communist threat in Hungary I will express my opinions but at the moment there is no such thing. On the other hand we have neo-nazis.****

1) I simply wish to understand your tremendous disconnect and inconsistencies on two very related totalitarianist regimes -- that have had massive influence on Hungary and Hungarians (a favorite topic of mine).

It is not that everything reminds me of communism, it is that communism hangover affects every part of and has ramifications for Hungarian life today, whether we like it or not. I don't.

Pretending that it doesn't -- is silly.

BTW your blog is named 'Hungarian Spectrum'.

2) It would be simple to answer my question.

a) I don't find them offensive b/c of A, B, and C.

b) I do find them offensive b/c of X, Y, and Z

3) Sorry to mute your faux-hysteria, but THERE IS NO neo-nazi threat in Hungary. You have a couple neo-nazi wackjobs running around, causing trouble, buying books at Szkítia -- and if they engage in violence of any sort, be it roughing up a person or throwing petrol bombs, they should be persecuted mercilessly.

Again...

THERE IS NO NEO-NAZI THREAT IN HUNGARY.

I will finish with this: It is clear you suffer from something my Nagypapa (same as above) pointed out to me. Teachers/professors quickly get used to 'teaching/speaking down to others', so much so, that they begin to take themselves much, much too seriously. As the American expression goes, 'They believe their own bullshit.'

Happens to all of us, some more than others.

It is painfully clear, in your posts and your comments that you do fall into this trap -- and you will never admit this to yourself -- your introspection is only superficial and paramount, you have become accustomed to, from your long academic career, to NOT being challenged on your views and why you hold them. After all, they were all only 'stupid questions', non?

Ironically, that is the point of blogging.

Know yourself to be an intellectual coward.