Hungarian neo-nazis on the attack

For quite a few days now the media has closely followed a story about a ticket office and atrocities against it by a shadowy extreme right-wing group, perhaps coordinated by a blogger who calls himself Tomcat. The events began when a young woman went to a ticket office in the district known as Újlipótváros. Újlipótváros used to be part of Lipótváros, that is downtown Pest. The old Jewish quarters were also situated in Lipótváros, and therefore in certain circles the name of the district became virtually synonymous with Jewishness. In any case the young woman wanted to purchase a ticket for a rock concert given by a group of far-right musicians. The clerk had never heard of the group but told the woman that she would check. After she found the group's name in her computer she told the customer the price: the cost of the ticket plus a 100 Ft handling fee. The young woman became enraged by the extra cost, complained to her ideological friends, and told them that the people at the ticket office had called her a fascist because she wanted to buy a ticket for this particular concert. The result: a Molotov cocktail in the middle of the night. The owners quickly fixed up the place, but by that time Tomcat and his friends had a new plan. Their idea was to bombard the ticket office with requests for tickets for another right-wing concert whose tickets are not even available through ticket offices.

However, a group of people who had had enough of the radical right's incredible performances of late came to the ticket office's rescue. At least 500 people gathered to defend the ticket office against approximately 50 neo-nazis. When I used the word "neo-nazi" I'm not exaggerating. I saw one young guy in a T-shirt with Hitler's picture on it! I really wonder whether these ignorant youngsters actually know anything about Hitler and the Third Reich. I'm not at all sure. Tomcat, camera in hand, was taking videos from the second floor of a nearby house, but the only thing he could see was that his friends disappeared when the police arrived. Interestingly enough the police, following Hungarian law, started proceedings against both groups. The demonstration was what the police call a "flash mob." A demonstration that begins spontaneously. It is unannounced. According to Hungarian law any demonstration must be announced to the police three days before the event.

Some of the demonstrators were obviously frustrated that they couldn't attack the ticket office due to the counter-demonstrators and the police. Two diehards decided to return to the scene. In the dead of night they broke the shop windows of the ticket office. However, the police were on the lookout and the perpetrators were arrested a few minutes later.

Undeterred, Tomcat and his friends are organizing a new demonstration. The anti-fascists are also organizing and tomorrow the scene will be repeated. However, this time the counter-demonstrators have a powerful ally: the prime minister himself. He announced his intention to join the counter-demonstrators and asked the other party leaders and the president to join him. Ibolya Dávid of MDF has already announced that she will not be there. She claimed that it was the police's job to keep order. I'm almost certain that Viktor Orbán will not show up. As for Sólyom, I highly doubt it.

Comments

[Varangy]

****saw one young guy in a T-shirt with Hitler's picture on it! I really wonder whether these ignorant youngsters actually know anything about Hitler and the Third Reich. I'm not at all sure.****

Unfortunately, I think they know enough about Hitler to know why they wear t-shirts such as the one you described.

Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?

http://www.bornintheussr.com/s7a.jpg

Or Che t-shits?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/Tshirts/26572~Che-Guevara-Posters.jpg

Equally as offensive? Or not so much?

[kincs]

Apparently Sólyom is going to turn up just long enough to make a statement to the crowd. It will be a healthy development if he does.

[Adrian]

The coverage on HVG was the second piece of good news I have had on the rise of facism in Hungary, the first being the school kids ridiculing the Magyar Guarda at hősök tere. "Mi is itthon vagyunk", at last the silent majority of Hungarians - who are frightened of reprisals - are expressing their opinion.

Varangy asks a very pertinent question about people's emotional reaction to the symbols of totalitarianism. I threw a hiszti in class on Monday because my Szálasi admiring student was sporting an arrow cross. Eva, these kids do know who Hitler was, and they admire what he achieved - for them, the holocaust is unfinished business, still so many gypsies to kill, - oh, and the disabled.

The cause of my emotion is the threat to my children as not "real hungarians". my middle child goes to an ovoda that sits between two disused synagogues. It used to be a Jewish primary school, everyday I am reminded of what happened to the kids attending that school in 1944, and it frightens me.

Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom. Largely, I think this is because as a Briton, my experience of the Soviet Union is different to that of those Hungarians who suffered under Soviet occupation. But, I am also not so upset by the use of the swatiska in the UK, where both symbols can be used freely. I think what is driving my emotional reaction to the arrow cross is not what happened in the middle of the 20th century, but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.

[Lia]

"The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does." Well said, Adrian.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

Well, Solyom will indeed be making an appearance, much to your chagrin, but nowhere in your post did you mention that György Szabó, a Fidesz representative in the local government was one of the main organizers of the anti-fascist rally. Not to say Fidesz is all great, but for some reason I can't help but think that wasn't accidentally left out.

I recall late last year when the parliamentary parties held a joint international press conference, and Gyurcsány had the rug pulled out from under him by (I think) Bálint Magyar, who said "Yes, Hungary has fascists, but there is no fascist threat." Suddenly Gyurcsány had to stop screaming fascism when his coalition partners said they were worried about it.

The people on the political fringes are always louder when the economy is bad. Once it picks up, they'll disappear back under the rocks they belong.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

The end of my second paragraph should read:

Suddenly Gyurcsány had to stop screaming about fascism when his coalition partners said they weren't worried about it.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Our Sixth Colume (Hatodik Oszlop): "Well, Solyom will indeed be making an appearance, much to your chagrin."

He visited the ticket office this morning. The demonstration will be in the afternoon. Typical Sólyom move.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pardon: column.

[kincs]

Spineless. He wants to be seen to be showing concern but won't actually go out on a limb. Lacks the courage of his convictions.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

I'll give you that. Contrary to earlier reports, Solyom won't be going out in the afternoon, which I think is a bad move on his part.

On the other hand, György Szabó has received death threats for his stand against the far-right, and kudos to him for taking it.

Now if only Gyurcsány would stay away this afternoon, as an increasing chorus of voices are demanding him to. His presence transforms everything into a protest against himself, not the topic at hand.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Sixth Column: "On the other hand, György Szabó has received death threats for his stand against the far-right, and kudos to him for taking it."

I purposely didn't mention the organizers because it is not at all clear who organized it. Certainly not one person. Apparently, the organization began on the Internet (iwiw and Judapest sites). I read a description of the events by a participant who was somewhat surprised when Gyorgy Szabo appeared with a bullhorn. They didn't even know who he was. So, he may have joined the others, but it seems to me that it was a fairly spontaneous gathering. However, I'm glad that Mayor Szabo (Fidesz) did appear. It is certainly laudable especially given Fidesz's very ambiguous attitude concerning the far right.

[R.]

Sneaking around and breaking windows in the dead of night? Over a 100 ft service charge? Really? That's pathetic.

Isn't it funny how, when these shadowy groups show themselves by the light of day, they're just 50 cowards with silly haircuts and stupid clothes.

50 jerks demanding to buy tickets for a band playing music that originated in the United States! Ha ha ha! That's comedy.

[Laci]

Interesting how people just assume that the group are fascist "Tom Cat"
I have been listening to his comments and he actually stipulates he is not a Fascist, he is defending the Hungarians Rights which have been oppressed for many centuries, as soon as someone defends hungarians they are labelled as fascist, it's actually should be looked at without LEFt or Right wing views , but what he is saying has some hardsore truth to it, however the media is reporting what the agenda requires NWO.. sadly ..

[Viking]

It is good that we, finally, can see some action coming from the non-extreme parts of the society against these extremists. The escalation has though gone rather fast on the extremist-side and I do not think we have seen the end of the scaling-up and sophistication of the violent methods used by the extremists. We must understand that when people gone over the edge to start throw petrol bombs, then actual murders are close to happen.

It is a problem in a democratic society how to handle these so violent and anti-democratic groups. The main effort must though stay on to propagate good believes and a higher degree of tolerance among ordinary people. On the other hand we must also allow extreme opinions to be ventilated, even if it offends us, as long as the rules for expressing opinions are followed.

As an entrepreneur owning several stores in Bp I of course get scared by the idea, that next time they may choose one of my shops as target practice. They are worse than the Mafia because the Mafia often understand business, so you can normally strike a deal.

Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare me. A strong and hungry Russia do. It has nothing to do which ideology is in power in Russia. We have fought the Russian Empire for several hundreds of years and helped to make it big. Communism had nothing to do to make Russia big, so I really do not understand Varangy's fear for some outdated insignia.

I never see on Varangy's site any statements about fascism etc, every time he lashes out against Communists. And that is of course no inconsistency...

He probably has a formula for calculating how consistent he is in his arguments, you know -x%/(+-)y%.

[Laci]

Hungarians have had the raw deal in there own country, being oppressed by the minorities for centuries, there is no democracy while the media is reporting such rot!! If you would be here and witnessing how the Hungarians are being oppressed by the Jews Zion, whom have not only spread there control in this country but most of the World, then you would appreciate that there is a group who have the courage to stand up to the Zion Fascists.. These people are not part of a Fascist right wing group they are odinary Hungarian citizens, sick of the manipulation they have received for many years by the Jewish Socialists. Before moving to Hungary I never even considered how corrupt the Socialists Jews are, and living, seeing and experiencing life in Hungary slowly the truth unfolds, not like in the west how people are lead like sheep..Baa Baa

[R.]

@ Laci

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you believe all this, what does attacking a ticket office over a 100 ft. service charge do? Instead, why don't you take responsibility for yourself, stop blaming other people for your problems, and to quoth Shakespeare, "grow a pair, already"?

Seriously though, ticket offices the world around charge service fees. If this was really a problem, then these nationalist bands could easily get around that by only selling tickets at the door.

[Adrian]

Laci,

I agree that since 1526 Hungarians have had a raw deal, but this has been the result of geopolitics rather than zionist conspiracy and gypsy crime. Hungary has survived in the midst of three powerful and authoritarian empires. But now the people making decisions about Hungary are Hungarians. Check the result of the last referendum.

Many British people I know have as much concern as you over political lies and media manipulation - over the war in Iraq for example. But not many of them think the petrol bombs and death threats are an appropriate response to lies and manipulation.

Having heard tomcat on HVG, and having read about his other beliefs and activites I think he is a fascist. I agree with the definiton of fascism given by the historian Robert Paxton. He argues that because fascist policies have varied from place to place, fascism is best seen as a style of politics. A style that is primarily emotional and violent rather than rational and lawful. Paxton argues that fascism tries to engage the following "mobilising passions":

• a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions;

• the primacy of the group, toward which one has duties superior to every right, whether individual or universal, and the subordination of the individual to it;

• the belief that one's group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external;

• dread of the group's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism, class conflict, and alien influences;

• the need for closer integration of a purer community, by consent if possible, or by exclusionary violence if necessary;

• the need for authority by natural leaders (always male), culminating in a national chief who alone is capable of incarnating the group's destiny;

• the superiority of the leader's instincts over abstract and universal reason;

• the beauty of violence and the efficacy of will, when they are devoted to the group's success;

• the right of the chosen people to dominate others without restraint from any kind of human or divine law, right being decided by the sole criterion of the group's prowess within a Darwinian struggle.

If you think that Tomcat has been misrepresented by the media, or that his style of politics is substantially inconsistent with the description given above let me know.

[Varangy]

****Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom.****

@Adrian

You are no different than most people. The West (academia and media) has been complicit in soft-peddling Communism's horrors.

****...but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.****

Really? The hammer-and-sickle do not represent a threat to your values? Interesting. A couple things:

1) I think the swastika, hammer-and-sickle, Che images are all equally vile and offensive. Why? They clearly represent totalitarianism and murder.

See a quick take here:

http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/27405703

2) I don't think the arrow cross is a real threat to anyone today in Hungary. Yes, you get some wackjob neo-nazis all hyped up --- but this is not the 2nd coming of the 3rd Reich, so I think you can get your family out of the basement now.

3) While I do find the above three symbols offensive (and would not wear them), I DO NOT think that they should be outlawed for obvious free speech reasons.

****Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare me. A strong and hungry Russia do. It has nothing to do which ideology is in power in Russia. We have fought the Russian Empire for several hundreds of years and helped to make it big. Communism had nothing to do to make Russia big, so I really do not understand Varangy's fear for some outdated insignia.****

@Viking

I am going to chalk your misunderstanding of my comment down to English not being your mother tongue. I do not 'fear' the outdated insignia in any way, shape or form. However, just like the swastika, it represents death and oppression --- and just like the swastika, it should be reviled, (but note: not outlawed).

****I never see on Varangy's site any statements about fascism etc, every time he lashes out against Communists. And that is of course no inconsistency...****

It always amuses me when you, ironically, think you are being clever.

But I digress...

1) All the people I know would, rightfully, condemn fascism if we were to have a conversation about it -- that said, this not true of everyone's feelings about Communism. e.g. the author of this blog and yourself

2) I have spoken out against fascism. Quoting myself:

****My father also recounts how many did join out of principle (!), one of their neighbors in the village he grew up in was the local Nazi chief, after the war, he became the local Party chief.

Can you still not condemn a movement that openly accepted and courted former Nazis?****

From: http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/30621841

3) Lastly, you should know Communism and fascism are a false dichotomy. In sum, different sides of the same evil coin.

Read this piece here:

http://www.mises.org/story/1937

****When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?*****

[Varangy]

****Having calmed down, I reflected that the hammer and sickle is also illegal in Hungary, and as Varangy suggests I would not have reacted so emotionally to its presence in my classroom.****

@Adrian

You are no different than most people. The West (academia and media) has been complicit in soft-peddling Communism's horrors.

****...but what is happening now. The hammer and sickle does not represent a real and present threat to me, my values, my property and my children; the arrow cross does.****

Really? The hammer-and-sickle do not represent a threat to your values? Interesting. A couple things:

1) I think the swastika, hammer-and-sickle, Che images are all equally vile and offensive. Why? They clearly represent totalitarianism and murder.

See a quick take here:

http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/27405703

2) I don't think the arrow cross is a real threat to anyone today in Hungary. Yes, you get some wackjob neo-nazis all hyped up --- but this is not the 2nd coming of the 3rd Reich, so I think you can get your family out of the basement now.

3) While I do find the above three symbols offensive (and would not wear them), I DO NOT think that they should be outlawed for obvious free speech reasons.

****Finally, for me as a Swede the Soviet-icons do not scare me. A strong and hungry Russia do. It has nothing to do which ideology is in power in Russia. We have fought the Russian Empire for several hundreds of years and helped to make it big. Communism had nothing to do to make Russia big, so I really do not understand Varangy's fear for some outdated insignia.****

@Viking

I am going to chalk your misunderstanding of my comment down to English not being your mother tongue. I do not 'fear' the outdated insignia in any way, shape or form. However, just like the swastika, it represents death and oppression --- and just like the swastika, it should be reviled, (but note: not outlawed).

****I never see on Varangy's site any statements about fascism etc, every time he lashes out against Communists. And that is of course no inconsistency...****

It always amuses me when you, ironically, think you are being clever.

But I digress...

1) All the people I know would, rightfully, condemn fascism if we were to have a conversation about it -- that said, this not true of everyone's feelings about Communism. e.g. the author of this blog and yourself

2) I have spoken out against fascism. Quoting myself:

****My father also recounts how many did join out of principle (!), one of their neighbors in the village he grew up in was the local Nazi chief, after the war, he became the local Party chief.

Can you still not condemn a movement that openly accepted and courted former Nazis?****

From: http://frappansklise.tumblr.com/post/30621841

3) Lastly, you should know Communism and fascism are a false dichotomy. In sum, different sides of the same evil coin.

Read this piece here:

http://www.mises.org/story/1937

****When one remembers that the word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei — in English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party — Mises's identification might not appear all that noteworthy. For what should one expect the economic system of a country ruled by a party with "socialist" in its name to be but socialism?*****

[Varangy]

[Note: Did not mean to post twice. Browser hicough.]

But Eva, you continue to avoid my questions...but let me, out of courtesy, begin.

If it is not clear, and I apologize if it is not, I find swastika and Hitler images on t-shirts etc etc quite offensive for obvious reasons.

I ask you, politely, again:

Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?

http://www.bornintheussr.com/s7a.jpg

Or Che t-shits?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/Tshirts/26572~Che-Guevara-Posters.jpg

Equally as offensive? Or not so much?

[Pisteve]

And silly me tried to catch the number 79 trolleybus today!

[Viking]

Varangy wrote: "Equally as offensive? Or not so much?"
Is this the Eurovision Song Contest? Is there a point system? What is the criteria - number of deaths, that people who did not join the Party could not send their children to the University?

One persons direct experience of fascism (in any form, see Adrian's post) cannot be translated into another persons direct experience of communism (whatever it was, where ever it was).

They do though have at least some things in common and that is the lack of personal freedom, multi party-system and free elections.

In Hungary you had more Hungarians killed by the Fascists than Communists during the previous Century. I do count the several 100.000 Hungarians with current or previous Jewish religion (or same of their relatives had it) and the rather unknown number of Roma killed, as Hungarians. But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad.

Would Hungary been occupied by the Soviets and had its share of Communism if Hungary would not have attacked the Allied Forces? Does not the responsibility of the horrors of Communism lay within the Hungarian society? How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be "equally" bad as the Soviets?

Varangy mention his Father's remembering that the local Nazi chief became the local Commie boss - Of course, it is naturally. The Soviets had at least 3 reasons for that:
1) The Hungarian Communist Party was not big enough, so they could not fill all security-sensitive positions.

2) The old Arrow-Cross security people at least knew how to torture people, so the did not need any "on-the-job training".

3) It was important to get things working as soon as possible so firstly the Soviet occupation troops could be fed locally, taking down the demand on logistics, which the Soviets were not so good on anyway. Also it is better if the locals do their thing, so they do not start to resist against the occupation.

Also, for you information Varangy - the US did the same thing. Scientists, like Werner von Braun, were sent to US to work. A lot of local German Nazis were not prosecuted, but re-instated in local positions in West-Germany. This is one of the big differences with the current Administration in the US today and its "After-war"-policies in Iraq. They did what you want and look what happened, a total breakdown of law and order.

In Sweden it is actually in the Law that the Swedish Police and local Govt should stay on and continue its work as usual (as possible of course) after an occupation by a foreign force. The reason for this is to protect the civilians.

The above does not mean, even if I have no illusion that Varangy will interpret in that way, that I support any totalitarian ideology, call it what you want. But I do want to be able to define my own definition of what is totalitarianism. There is no objectivity out there, just a bunch of subjective thinking and analogue with that not all "terrorists" are "terrorists", what Varangy, Aemann and Kosa in Debrecen call dictatorship does not mean I call it that.

[Eva S. Balogh]

The toad:
"But Eva, you continue to avoid my questions...but let me, out of courtesy, begin. If it is not clear, and I apologize if it is not, I find swastika and Hitler images on t-shirts etc etc quite offensive for obvious reasons. I ask you, politely, again: Eva, how do you feel about Soviet hammer-and-sickle t-shirts?"

You don't seem to get it. I don't answer your stupid questions. That's all. I'm sure you know the joke about Móricka and what he has constantly on his mind. You're like that. Everything reminds you of communism. If there will be a communist threat in Hungary I will express my opinions but at the moment there is no such thing. On the other hand we have neo-nazis.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Laci: "Hungarians have had the raw deal in there own country, being oppressed by the minorities for centuries, there is no democracy while the media is reporting such rot!! If you would be here and witnessing how the Hungarians are being oppressed by the Jews Zion."

Until now at least we were free of this primitive antisemitism of the Hungarian far right. Now here it is. The civilized readers of this blog now can have a taste of its ideology. However, Laci, I wouldn't overdo it because there are consequences. At least on this blog. The Hungarian police might take the abuse, but I don't tolerate primitive rantings and ravings.

[Varangy]

****You don't seem to get it. I don't answer your stupid questions. That's all.****

@Eva

Ah! I thought you were above ad hominem? Actually, that isn't correct. You weren't above insulting my family.

Again, your evasiveness speaks volumes.

****I'm sure you know the joke about Móricka and what he has constantly on his mind.****

My Nagypapa constantly told us Móricka anecdotes. Good stuff.

****You're like that. Everything reminds you of communism. If there will be a communist threat in Hungary I will express my opinions but at the moment there is no such thing. On the other hand we have neo-nazis.****

1) I simply wish to understand your tremendous disconnect and inconsistencies on two very related totalitarianist regimes -- that have had massive influence on Hungary and Hungarians (a favorite topic of mine).

It is not that everything reminds me of communism, it is that communism hangover affects every part of and has ramifications for Hungarian life today, whether we like it or not. I don't.

Pretending that it doesn't -- is silly.

BTW your blog is named 'Hungarian Spectrum'.

2) It would be simple to answer my question.

a) I don't find them offensive b/c of A, B, and C.

b) I do find them offensive b/c of X, Y, and Z

3) Sorry to mute your faux-hysteria, but THERE IS NO neo-nazi threat in Hungary. You have a couple neo-nazi wackjobs running around, causing trouble, buying books at Szkítia -- and if they engage in violence of any sort, be it roughing up a person or throwing petrol bombs, they should be persecuted mercilessly.

Again...

THERE IS NO NEO-NAZI THREAT IN HUNGARY.

I will finish with this: It is clear you suffer from something my Nagypapa (same as above) pointed out to me. Teachers/professors quickly get used to 'teaching/speaking down to others', so much so, that they begin to take themselves much, much too seriously. As the American expression goes, 'They believe their own bullshit.'

Happens to all of us, some more than others.

It is painfully clear, in your posts and your comments that you do fall into this trap -- and you will never admit this to yourself -- your introspection is only superficial and paramount, you have become accustomed to, from your long academic career, to NOT being challenged on your views and why you hold them. After all, they were all only 'stupid questions', non?

Ironically, that is the point of blogging.

Know yourself to be an intellectual coward.

[Varangy]

*****Varangy wrote: "Equally as offensive? Or not so much?"
Is this the Eurovision Song Contest? Is there a point system? What is the criteria - number of deaths, that people who did not join the Party could not send their children to the University?*****

Great question. I'll pretend that you weren't being facetious. I hold both symbols to be equally offensive and represenative of intentional: death, destruction, pain, and obliteration of freedoms.

****They do though have at least some things in common and that is the lack of personal freedom, multi party-system and free elections.****

I am impressed that you noticed. Not bad, coming from you.

****But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad.****

Yes. Explain to me, cogently, why I am wrong.

*****Does not the responsibility of the horrors of Communism lay within the Hungarian society?*****

Sure.

*****How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be "equally" bad as the Soviets?*****

You make, like always, no sense. How can the Hun. Nazis that brought Communism into Hungary????????? What?

****Varangy mention his Father's remembering that the local Nazi chief became the local Commie boss - Of course, it is naturally.****

You don't have to explain it. It makes perfect sense. But that is the point, you believe in one form of totalitariansim, you can believe in another. But if you give a pass to the Commies, but not the Nazis, you are inconsistent on two counts:

1) They are the same.

2) Assuming they are qualitatively different at the outset (Commies somehow morally superiour) -- by absorbing former Nazis, they then become their moral equivalent.

****But I do want to be able to define my own definition of what is totalitarianism. There is no objectivity out there, just a bunch of subjective thinking and analogue ...what Varangy, Aemann and Kosa in Debrecen call dictatorship does not mean I call it that.*****

You've officially lost the plot. I don't know about Swedish, but in Hungarian and English discourse, words and concepts have defined, objective meanings. One cannot remain intellectually honest and consistent by changing a definition to suit their argument.

[Viking]

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Varangy:
****But in your eyes the Fascists and Communists are equally bad.****

Yes. Explain to me, cogently, why I am wrong.
=======================
Viking:
Is that not obvious reading the 2 sentences before in my original post?

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Varangy:
****How can the Hungarian Fascists that brought Communism into Hungary be "equally" bad as the Soviets?*****

You make, like always, no sense. How can the Hun. Nazis that brought Communism into Hungary????????? What?
=======================
Viking:
The answer lies 2 sentences above in my original post - Hungary's attack on the Allied Forces. Do you claim that the Allied Forces attacked Hungary and Hungarian Forces did not participate in the attack on Stalingrad and one my wife's uncles were not taken prisoner of war 3 days after the Hungarian attack on Soviet and spent 8 years in Siberia?

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Varangy:
"you believe in one form of totalitariansim, you can believe in another"
=======================
Viking:
No the point is totally the opposite - I do *not* believe in *any* form of totalitarianism. As I thought (in my original post) that one would be hard for you to grasp.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Varangy:
"words and concepts have defined, objective meanings"
=======================
Viking:
Well, I obviously was not totally clear here, so let us take the Kosa example. After the local elections in October 2006 Kosa called the Gyurcsany-Government for "an elected dictatorship".

It was of course a bit funny that Kosa, elected with 75% of the votes, calls Guyrcsany's Govt, that won with a very small margin, for "an elected dictatorship". Normally you call countries were people only can vote on one alternative (in reality) for "an elected dictatorship" and those normally get 99.999999% of the votes. Some one's deaf and blind great grandmother put the slip in the wrong box.

I do not agree with Kosa in his evaluation of how Hungary is ruled. I call it democracy, he does not. That is my point of myself defining if a state has a totalitarian rule or not at any given time.

If I am honest or not, intellectual and consistent or not, is for others to judge. I normally do not give a hoot what people think anyway.

[Varangy]

@Viking

I give up on trying to communicate with you. Not because I don't want. B/c I can't.

As much as I try, I can't understand your gibberish and you cannot understand my rhetoric.

Look, maybe it is me or, most likely, it is you, but this is making a mockery of human language.

[Viking]

You sound more and more like my wife, Darling.

[Adrian]

varangy

I wish you would my post more carefully before you attack what you think it means.

Communism as a totalitarian ideology that embraced murder and theft as a means of achieving its ends is as profoundly opposed to my values as fascism.

But, as there are no communists organising violent demonstrations, throwing petrol bombs, issuing death threats, arguing for the necessity of class war, and classifying my family as class traitors communism does not represent a REAL AND PRESENT threat to me, etc.

As someone who has liberal values, I agree with the principle that people should have freedom of expression to use what symbols they like.

As a conservative thinker who has been to forced to recognise the socially disruptive effect of the use of those symbols, I can understand why they are illegal in Hungary.

Thanks for seeing me as a "western intellectual", but I think you must have missed our debates above the comparative evil of the Hitler and Stalin regimes. Since the collapse of communism, there has been much rewriting of history and condemning of those who soft-peddled the evil of communism. I am not politically correct, I am not left wing, I'm on a different place in the Spectrum.

[Pistefka]

Viking says:
"Would Hungary been occupied by the Soviets and had its share of Communism if Hungary would not have attacked the Allied Forces?"

errr- YES. See Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, (The Czech part of-)Czechoslovakia. All of them were either on the Allied side, in the case of Poland, or simply got steamrollered by both sides in the war. Didn't do them much good at Yalta. Neither did Romania's switching sides in 1944. Austria, on the other hand, managed to stay outside of the Soviet sphere. Nem fer, and nothing to do with their affiliation in the war.

"Does not the responsibility of the horrors of Communism lay (sic) within the Hungarian society?"
- YES, in that it was Hungarians
enforcing the regime on other Hungarians, even if there were "Soviet" foreigners in the background (or in the foreground, in tanks, in 1956.) As was the case in all other communist countries, including those which broke with Moscow. But we all know that.

[Adrian]

Pistefka,

in 1956 the soviet union made it quite clear that it would not tolerate a non-aligned, non-socialist Hungary. There was no realistic option for a non-communist Hungary. So I don't think you can blame the entire population for tolerating the "horrors of communism", unless you expected them to commit some act of national matyrdom like the Poles in the Warsaw uprising.

Nor do I think you can collectively blame those Hungarians who participated in the regime, the country still needed government and it was preferable that it was government that spoke Hungarian rather than Russian.

The Nazi administration did not suffer collective punishment afer WWII but individual Nazi's who could be prosecuted were. I think if something had been done in 1989 along the lines of South Africa's truth and reconciliation committee, it would have drawn a lot of the poison that is still in the Hungarian body politic.

[Odin's lost eye]

Iwanted to post this yesterday but thunderstorms prevented me.
I know two or three people out here in the boondocks who could and are willing to improve Mr "Tomcat's" weight and running ability by making him lighter. 2 stones lighter in fact. All of them have said that they would not charge him their usual fees. I will refrain from making further jokes about vets, ball-races and the ‘unkindest cut of all’! To my mind it may well save the future from his progeny.
Mr Laci what you have written is pure un-adulterated I will not use the word here but it is derived from the name of the inventor of the Water Closet (Mr Thomas Crapper of New York). A man who has given more people relief and ease than all the Popes ever have. If I may give you a piece of advice "change your 'chemical substance' supplier as you really must have gotten hold of something very nasty". All the Jews (and it is a religion not a nation) I have ever met, worked with, traded with, were reasonably honest, reasonably hard working and reasonably reliable etc. In the main they were no different from me (except in the matter of bacon sandwiches). My final piece of advice to you Laci is "Nihil nici bonum dixit" and not the spluttering drivel you have written which could have been dredged up from ‘The Protocols of the Elders of Zion’. A book has about as much truth in it as the ‘Awful disclosures of Maria Monk’.

[Varangy]

****The Nazi administration did not suffer collective punishment afer WWII but individual Nazi's who could be prosecuted were. I think if something had been done in 1989 along the lines of South Africa's truth and reconciliation committee, it would have drawn a lot of the poison that is still in the Hungarian body politic.****

Well put. For once, we agree.

As Tibor Fischer of Under the Frog fame noted in a book review:

****The fiftieth anniversary of the revolution also saw the worst street disturbances in Budapest since 1956. As I watched one demonstrator, who was restrained by four riot policemen, being repeatedly kicked in the head by a fifth, it occurred to me that the commonplace that the revolution has had a delayed triumph is wrong. There has been almost no attempt to punish the guilty, especially the ÁVO who massacred hundreds of unarmed, peaceful civilians during and after the revolution; the reasons for this are manifold, but the reality is that the justice button has never really been pushed. Those who fought in 1956 and survived mostly have miserable existences as hard-up pensioners.****

http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25336-2489830,00.html

"but the reality is that the justice button has never really been pushed"

Sort of odd phrasing, but I like it.

[Odin's lost eye]

@ Varangy - Thanks for the link to the 'Old Thunderer' (Times). It helped me to understand and modify my oppinions of the 'Personae dramatici' (including the current crop of actors on stage).
As you have quoted "but the reality is that the justice button has never really been pushed". I will agree with this but the 'button of justice' is seldom pushed in cases like these. It is too late! The best solution was discovered by Nelson Mandela who gave the job to Bishop Desmond Tuttu (Anglican Communion)- the Peace and Reconcillation Commission. Let 'the dead bury the dead'. Learn from history and live for tomorrow!
For all the political machinations and finagling in this country one of my greatest worries by the lack of knowledge of the economic realities of the capitalist world and how can this be corrected?
Dr Balogh - Is this a suitable topic in its own right?
As to the Neo-nazis just laugh at them then they will dissapear.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Odin's lost eye: "For all the political machinations and finagling in this country one of my greatest worries by the lack of knowledge of the economic realities of the capitalist world and how can this be corrected? Dr Balogh - Is this a suitable topic in its own right?"

I agree with you and I think that it would be a suitable topic.

[Adrian]

Odin's lost eye,

"just laugh at them then they will dissapear"

I wish. This movement has been growing more popular and better organised over a six year period. Academic standards have been slipping for longer.

I meet "Laci" and his friends in my classroom and in the staffroom everyday, nothing I can say about my Jewish acquaintances or the reliability of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion has made much difference.

I agree with NWOs identification with them as "losers" in the new economic settlement, but so were the Nazi's. The global economy could soon deliver many new losers to join them.

[Varangy]

****It is too late! The best solution was discovered by Nelson Mandela who gave the job to Bishop Desmond Tuttu (Anglican Communion)- the Peace and Reconcillation Commission. Let 'the dead bury the dead'. Learn from history and live for tomorrow!****

@Odin's lost eye

So, how do you feel about Israel continuing to hunt down Nazis long, long after WW II?

If you couldn't guess, I support it.

[Laci]

@Adrien

Appreciate your comments,

Another interesting point is that the petrol bomb was allegedly tossed at the Shop, and many people miss the media and assume it was the Jobbik or someone from the right wing group, there has been many examples of framing occuring at these desperate times so it's premature to accuse anyone unless there is substantial evidence.
Also there is Historical evidence discovered by archealogists that Hungarians history has been seriously been altered way back by the Germans so many of the Jobbik group are fully aware of this and dont take sides of Hitler Communism or Fascism. They just like to be able to teach their version not the version which has been published and written by the Holy Roman Empire, or the Germans Russians Austrians etc. So it goes back further to the Dark Ages to Charlemagne. The institutions refuse to even debate these findings and many schools are teaching from different text books, very confusing for the people of Hungary what version to believe. It's our opportunity in Hungary for the first time in Centuries to have our freedom and still it is not recognised by western scholars and Historians, so there is still an agenda to oppress the Hungarians. Sometimes you wonder who is really living the conspiracy i feel i might have to join the WooWoo club, however sincerely I have gone along to some group meetings on different parties here and unfortunately there like a dog with a bone there all feed up and are desperate to find the truth, and both sides are being divided for the wrong reasons, Hungarians are being divided for a reason , so they remain oppressed and easily controlled,chaos to keep Hungary from developing too quickly. It's the old one step forward 2 steps back.. and I don't see any short term answers for the average Hungarian.

And Eva, your a Sad case!! not wasting my time with narrow minded Lefties!!

[Eva S. Balogh]

Laci: "And Eva, your a Sad case!! not wasting my time with narrow minded Lefties!!" And I don't waste my time with someone from the lunatic fringe who thinks that Hungarian history was altered."

[Laci]

@Adrien
Appreciate your comments,
Another interesting point is that the petrol bomb was allegedly tossed at the
Shop, and many people miss the media and assume it was the Jobbik or someone
from the right wing group, there has been many examples of framing occuring at
these desperate times so it's premature to accuse anyone unless there is
substantial evidence.
Also there is Historical evidence discovered by archealogists that Hungarians
history has been seriously been altered way back by the Germans so many of the
Jobbik group are fully aware of this and dont take sides of Hitler Communism or
Fascism. They just like to be able to teach their version not the version which
has been published and written by the Holy Roman Empire, or the Germans Russians
Austrians etc. So it goes back further to the Dark Ages to Charlemagne. The
institutions refuse to even debate these findings and many schools are teaching
from different text books, very confusing for the people of Hungary what version
to believe. It's our opportunity in Hungary for the first time in Centuries to
have our freedom and still it is not recognised by western scholars and
Historians, so there is still an agenda to oppress the Hungarians. Sometimes you
wonder who is really living the conspiracy i feel i might have to join the
WooWoo club, however sincerely I have gone along to some group meetings on
different parties here and unfortunately there like a dog with a bone there all
feed up and are desperate to find the truth, and both sides are being divided, Hungarians are being divided for a reason , so they
remain oppressed and easily controlled,chaos to keep Hungary from developing too
quickly. It's the old one step forward 2 steps back.. and I don't see any short
term answers for the average Hungarian.
And Eva, your a Sad case!! not wasting my time with narrow minded Lefties!!

[R.]

@ Laci

"Sometimes you wonder who is really living the conspiracy i feel i might have to join the WooWoo club"

I think you might have already joined the WooWoo club, Laci.

[Adrian]

Laci,

since we have such different political views I don't know what I wrote that you appreciated, but I'm glad that you did. It shows me that behind the rage and frustration, you're still interested in finding answers for your questions rather than just trying to destroy the people who have views different to your own.

My intellectual training was as a philosopher rather than a historian, so I can't really say anything intelligent about what's going on in Hungarian history at the moment. But I am reading a book, "The Idea of History" by R.G.Collingwood, that addresses some of the questions that you are interested in. How ideas about of "what History is" and "how historians should work" have changed since Herodotus.

But the feeling that history is changing is again not unique to the Hungarians, I have to laugh when I think back to the views I had about the second world war when I left school. At that time I though the British had a leading role in a war we won, now I think we had a supporting role in war we lost, while the real struggle took place between Russia and Germany. But this view has been changed by the experience of living in Hungary - and for a while in Russia, and by the huge amount of new information that has come into the hands of anglophone historians since 1989, not because I realised my teachers were lying to me.

As a school teacher I think there are significant problems with the way that History and the other humanities are taught in Hungarian schools. History is taught on a very broad basis in Hungarian schools, they try to cover all of human civilisation. The problem with this is that nothing gets beyond the presentation of 'facts'. At my school we once spent 11 weeks trying to find out if the English Richard III (1483-85) murdered his nephews. Immediately after his reign this "crime" had great political significance and many histrorians have written about it. They are still divided about Richard's guilt or innocence, because in truth there is still not enough evidence to decide one way or the other, perhaps their never will be.

You're right there are no quick answers, but if you follow the links on this thread (courtesy of toad)

http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25336-2489830,00.html

You'll see that Hungarian scholars are now making most progress with their own history. You should appreciate though, when that you say Hungarian History has been altered, you're accusing Eva - who is a historian specialisng in modern Hungarian history - and her colleagues of deliberately lying to advance their political aims. We all have her biases - I think she is too fond of Gyurcsány - but I don't think anyone here is being deliberately dishonest.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Adrian:""I think she [me] is too fond of Gyurcsány - but I don't think anyone here is being deliberately dishonest."

I simply think that under the present circumstances there is no one who would be better.

[Eva S. Balogh]

R: I think you might have already joined the WooWoo club"..."

He lives in lalaland!

[NWO]

"I simply think that under the present circumstances there is no one who would be better."-Eva

I have been supportive of the PM and the Government on exactly this basis, but I really do not know if this holds up any longer.

(1) I am concerned we have entered a period for the next two years when all that really occurs is tactical positioning by the MSZP. The PM has lost the support of his own Party to carry out real reform (which I think he actually supports), and has chosen as a fall back to try "velvet reform" (reforms that do not hurt). The problem is that such "velvet reforms" will slowly kill the patient. Because of "internal pressure", the PM has already thrown overboard serios healthcare and education reform and now any adjustment in taxes (and the corresponding necessary adjustments to Government spending). The MSZP wants to compete going forward by the traditional strategy of Government pork and transfer payments. This will be a "diet" version because the one thing the PM appears committed to is maintaining the budget discipline. Nevertheless, it is a recipe that may help them in the election but will be very bad for the country in the meantime.
(2) The population is not willing to listen to and will never trust the PM. He has lost credibility. I may not like it. You may not like it. But this is the truth. And to echo Sen. Obama, this is not just among the "bitter" working class that have lost their jobs and their prospects for a better life and march around like complete idiots in replica iron cross outfits and pine for a pre-Trianon Hungary. This is among a large swathe of the "less bitter" population. People I talk to and socialize with on a regular basis. Given this, the PM does not have the personal credibility to get things done.

[Hatodik Oszlop]

NWO: "the PM does not have the personal credibility to get things done."

Precisely the problem.

[kincs]

NWO,
It may be true that the PM has lost credibility, but this is a country where the idea that you can maintain Kádár-era levels of social care without paying for it is credible. One reason why Gyurcsány lacks credibility is that people don’t want to hear what he’s telling them. The only party that’s consistently serious about reforms is the SZDSZ, and look how popular they are.

NWO, I think you’re generally right, but can you think of anyone who would be better to institute reforms?
Orbán? Probably people would go along with him if he advocated reform, but it doesn’t seem likely that he will.
Maybe people would accept the case for reform coming from a bland Socialist like Péter Kiss, who knows?
Any other ideas?

[Adrian]

Kincs,

A colleague of mine switched from the MSZP when Gyurcsány became leader, she said at the time that had Péter Kiss become leader she would have stayed.

But having said that, should politics be based on personality or policy?

[NWO]

Kincs-

I don't really have an answer to your question. I would like Bokros and Simor to lead the Government with a 2/3rds majority. They could rip the system up by the roots, without giving too much a damn about the political consequences to themselves.

More seriously, I have grown to respect Veres as a finance minister. I think he has done the tough work well, while remaining popular within MSZP circles. I think Peter Kiss is a smart, old line socialist. He is not the answer. Szili would be the worst; she manages to be left wing and not smart and popular at the same time.

As for Fidesz, I detest Orban. I do not like the Party either, becasue they have lost their liberal soul and have become, as a Party, a bunch of right wing socialist demagogues (see Laszlo Kover). Nevertheless, I think some of the second line people (Kosa, Pokorni, Antal for example) if given a chance and without the yoke of Orban around their neck, might be positive surprises. If one listened to Mihaly Varga the other day, he emphasised that FIDESZ's goal is early Euro adoption. If that is the case (and he does seem to speak for the party on serious economic issues, which Viktor never does), there would be very little room to operate and deviate from the Veres/Gyurcsany plan. My guess is that FIDESZ would come to power, and after a couple of weeks announce that things are actually so much worse than they realized because of MSZP misdeeds that they have little room now to fulfill all of their promises. They would maintain the largely symbolic promises, but underneath the surface they would be fairly conservative in their approach. For example, they would continue to denounce private capital in the health care system, while at the same time continuing to allow private management of hospitals. How do I know this? Well because so many FIDESZ people are already investing in private healthcare!

This "say one thing and do another policy" is basically what happened in 1998. In fact, FIDESZ would have no choice, and given some peaceful downtime in the country with their hordes if idiotic, bitter protestors enjoying the demise of the MSZP and even more so the SzDSz, they could actually accomplish one or two things.

This is not to say that I want FIDESZ to win, just that I think we are stuck anyway we go.

[kincs]

Adrian – “should politics be based on personality or policy?”

It should be based on policy. As I’m sure you know, though, politics is made up of both personality and policy. It’s no use having the right policy if you can’t win people over to it, to at least not alienate too many people with it. You need a personality who can persuade enough people that his/her policy is the right one. The US Democrats have been trying for months to decide which personality is best to win people over to what are essentially the same policies.
The reason why there may be no better alternative than Gyurcsány in Hungary is that there doesn’t seem to be anyone else who a) believes in reforms and b) can bring the people along with him. Gyurcsány no longer meets criterion b) if he ever did, but there doesn’t seem to be anyone else in the MSZP who under-stands and can make the case for reform.

NWO, your scenario “In fact, FIDESZ would have no choice, and given some peaceful downtime in the country with their hordes of idiotic, bitter protestors enjoying the demise of the MSZP and even more so the SzDSz, they could actually accomplish one or two things.”

is entirely plausible. Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad.
That you wouldn’t want Fidesz to win anyway is a useful reminder that there’s more to politics than just economics.

[Adrian]

Kincs,

I disagree with your analysis of the Democratic nomination process as "to decide which personality is best to win people over to what are essentially the same policies". A key policy consideration for me is American involvement in Iraq, Obama has made a clear commitment to speedily withdraw, Clinton not so clearly and not so speedily.

But you are right to point out that the Democratic party is in part trying to make a calculation about which candidate has more appeal to the American electorate - so for example the discussion about whether white working class men are more likely to vote for a black man or a white woman. This kind of politics is deplorable, and is equivalent to the "Gyurcsány is a jew" nonsense I hear in Hungary.

I think the reason Gyúrcsány has been unable to carry the reform message to the Hungarian people is primarily because the Hungrian electorate is unwilling/unable to listen to a policy debate. Fidesz leaving parliament everytime Gyúrcsány speaks lends authority to this personality politics.

It seems like NWO you are reccomending a situation in which the Government says one thing and does another. Well, too quote Bob Marley, "you can fool some of the people some time, but you can't fool all the people all the time". This kind of politics doesn't build people's confidence in the democratic system, and I am concerned about the future of democracy in Hungary in a period of global economic contraction.