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« Higher education and professional schools in Hungary | Main | The usual political mess in Hungary with some help from the media »

May 08, 2008

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Comments

Dumneazu

Whatever labels we could pin on Deutsch, "openly Jewish" is not one of them. He keeps his ethnic origins a secret, and within Budapest Jewish circles he is seen as something of a lost cause, hardly worthy of comment. He has never taken part in any Jewish community social or religious activity, spoken publicly as a Jew, or spoken up during any situation involving antisemitic activity in Hungary. As for Bayer... at least he has been known to admit he is a Schwabian-German Hungarian.

Adrian

Eva,

"Although the Budapest Jews fared better than Jews outside the capital..."

Are there any available statistics for the impact on Jewish communities in provincial Hungarian towns?

Adrian

"[Deutsch] keeps his ethnic origins a secret"

From his appearence I have always assumed he was of Roma origin, is there any credible evidence for this?

Dumneazu

No, there is no evidence at all that Deutsch is Roma. Back in the early 1990s, when FIDESZ was still a liberal party, Orban humself was often slighted by the right wing press as being, possibly, Gypsy, based on his facial characteristics. In most cases, physical appearances are not the best definition of somebody's cultural background.

Adrian

Dumneazu,

"In most cases, physical appearances are not the best definition of somebody's cultural background."

This is the first time somebody has ever suggested that to me in the case of the Roma. My Hungarian friends/family are long on why this sort of black hair is not gypsy black hair, and the nature of "cigany szag". As this thread proves I find it all hard to apply in practice, and think that the strongest strand of Roma identity is neither racial nor cultural but socio-economic, what we in the UK call the underclass.

Do you think there is a coherent cultural identity for the Roma that both they and the "white" majority would accept?

My frustration is that the Roma can never have real leadership as it is easy for ambitious Roma to adopt a "Hungarian" identity. This was never an option for Colin Powell or Barack Obama however pale their skins.

Eva S. Balogh

Adrian:""Although the Budapest Jews fared better than Jews outside the capital..." Are there any available statistics for the impact on Jewish communities in provincial Hungarian towns?"

Practically all wiped out. My family lived in a house with seven apartments in Pécs. The owners of six were Jewish. None of them came back.

Eva S. Balogh

Dumneazu: "Whatever labels we could pin on Deutsch, "openly Jewish" is not one of them."

I must confess that I took the information out of an English-language publication without really checking. I knew he was Jewish but I didn't realize that he tries to be secretive about this fact.

Dumneazu

"Race" is always a culturally delineated concept, not a scientific term. In Jamaica Colin Powell would be termed "Jamaica White" and Barack Obama would probably be considered white in Kenya. The idea of the "one drop of blood" racial rule is unique to the American expreience.

As far as Roma are concerned, some are dark and some are not, some dress in traditonal style, and some do not. Take the family living below me in Pest - originally from a Transylvanian musician caste family, they "look white." The rest of the residents of my building never call them "Hungarians"... but always "the Romanians" even though hey have been in the building since 1988. They are Seventh Day Adventists (which in Transylvania attracts a predominantly Roma congregation) so they don't drink or smoke. One son is a succeful bio-geneticist while the other does odd jobs around the neighborhood and begs a bit.

Another case is a well known jazz/avant garde Huyngarian violinist from Szabadka in Voivodina. His outwardly teutonic looks - blonde hair, fair skin - come from his mother. His father, however, is a rather dark skinned Roma who was also a professor of violin at the music conservatory, who taught his son to think of himself as a Gypsy, saying "Once they find out you are a Gypsy, you'll have to work twice as hard to get ahead in this world."

Anonymous

@Dumneazu

****As for Bayer... at least he has been known to admit he is a Schwabian-German Hungarian.****

Modern Hungarians are never loathe to 'admit' their Schwabian/German roots. Pre WW II, clearly they were. The VarangyNagyPapa's father changed his surname to a Hungarian one from a Saxon one. However, on other sides of my family, their equally names Austro-Germanic names (as were some Slavic surnames) were proudly kept.

In Hungary, Schwabs have a reputation for diligence and frugality, thought to lead to financial success.

Lastly, it would be hard for Bayer Zsolt not to 'admit' his German roots as his last name clearly means 'Bavarian'.

-The T O A D

Anonymous

Eva,

You persist in censoring my comments, I see.

Why is that? I'd love for you to explain yourself.

-T H E T O A D

PS Clearly you have flagged the 'V' word as spam. Must you play such silly games?


Adrian

Dumneazu,

***"Race" is always a culturally delineated concept, not a scientific term.***

I don't know if you'll still be interested in this cold thread, but this was important to me so I've been doing a little research.

Both geneticists and evolutionary biologists/psychologists use 'race' or euphemisms (population, cline) for it as scientifc terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy

They agree that race cannot be indicated by the presence or absence of a single genetic/taxonomic feature, but it can be indicated by the presence or absence of a cluster of features. Sort of - tightly curled hair by itself is not a indicator of African descent, but tightly curled hair, very dark skin and a flat nose might be.
The most obvious use of this concept of race is in genetic medicine.

In the social sciences, I can't find anything of interest to do with race apart from the study of people's universal obsession with it. Darwin apparently suggested that the taxonomic differences between races evolved as a result of sexual selection, i.e. as a sign of fitness, rather than as a fitness itself.

As for Gypsies and Jews in Hungary, I think I have to agree with you they are cultural concepts, not scientific terms.

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