Search

  • Google

    WWW
    esbalogh.typepad.com

News around the World

  • Pusztaranger: Neues aus Ungarn
    An excellent German-language blog on Hungary
  • Galamus-Csoport
    A Hungarian-language internet paper. News and opinions by leading Hungarian commentators. galamus.hu
  • JeToTak
    A Slovak website that provides readers with analyses and commentaries on domestic and world events. The language is Slovak, but the editors are experimenting with the introduction of some English language items, including selected articles from Hungarian Spectrum.

« Hungarian public education: 1945-1956 | Main | Hungarian public education: 1956-1990 »

May 27, 2009

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00e009865ae58833011570aa5515970b

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Skipping along in Hungary: Public transportation anomalies:

Comments

Hettie

It was first door on other doors off in Szeged between 1995-2000 when I went to university there. I don't think that changed...

Anyhow, I always buy a pass or tickets when in Hungary (and generally avoid public transport in the city I live now) as was the case before I moved abroad. A correlation can go both ways, maybe Hungarians who pay their busfares are more likely to move abroad? :)

Eva S. Balogh

Hettie: "It was first door on other doors off in Szeged between 1995-2000 when I went to university there. I don't think that changed..."

It seems then that people have more sense in Szeged than in some other places!

Mark

"And now comes the modern monsters' case."

Again, I'm not sure it need be a problem. You could employ conductors. You allow people to buy a ticket on board for a premium price - say, one and a half times that of a normal ticket. If someone has no valid ticket for travel on the streetcar, they have to buy the higher priced one. The revenue would pay the salaries of the conductors.

Eva S. Balogh

Mark: "Again, I'm not sure it need be a problem. You could employ conductors."

I mentioned this a possibility at the beginning. I think it would be worth hiring them.

Öcsi

I think the problem is that public transportation is not "public." That is to say, it is not free. And it should be!

Public transportation should be as free as street lighting, parks and, dare I say, education and medical care.

Yes, I understand that it is not "free," that someone has to pay for it, but just make it a tax. A lot of money could be saved by getting rid of the ticket checkers that are everywhere. And a tax would be as fair as any tax. Some people benefit and some don't. (I, for one, don't have kids but I don't mind paying school tax on my house.)

It makes total environmental sense to get as many people to use public transportation as possible. I am always amazed when I take the 56 tram to Moszkva tér and see the streets clogged with cars, usually with just the driver. It's a waste of gas, time, roads and I don't even want to think of the quality of the air those idling cars produce.

I agree with you that people are afraid of innovation and change but, surely, there has to be some progressive leadership on this issue.

Mark

Öcsi: "Yes, I understand that it is not "free," that someone has to pay for it, but just make it a tax."

This isn't really the problem. The difficulty with free, or low-cost public transportation is that there is necessarily limited capacity, and if you abolished fares, or reduced fares to a low level so they don't make people think about the choices they make, you will create unlimited demand. Budapest's problem (and I use public transport always in Budapest - the last time on Sunday, I last used a car there in 2004) is partly one of inadeuqate capacity due to long-term underinvestment, but it is also a systemic problem in that the BKV cannot manage the demand for services effectively because of fare dodging and too many people paying too little. This systemic problem is behind endemic overcrowding, which is especially noticeable on bus lines.

I'm absolutely sure that most of those drivers are not sitting in their cars because of the cost. Most of them do so because public transport is either not an option (especially for those who live beyond the city boundaries, where there is a real need for an improvement in services), or because their experience of public transport is unpleasant. If some restructuring of fares occurred, combined with investment, and road charging for car use in Budapest, then I suspect the traffic jams could be much reduced. But it will take political courage to solve the problem.

Kirsten

Dear Eva,

in your comment to "skipping" in Hungary you write: "Bliccelni" generally means to gain a certain advantage by cleverness, by outfoxing the authorities. It is not really a crime.
I would like to ask something related to that. It seems to me that in every country at least some people try to "be clever" and "circumvent" the rules, but from my (admittedly limited) knowledge of Hungarians I got the impression that in Hungary a large proportion of people thinks that anyone who plays by the rules is somewhat mad. (And your comment today seems to confirm this impression.) I was thinking about why such attitude has gained ground and when. In communist societies (where I grew up) indeed rules were a flexible matter, so is it a relict from these times? Or even older?


Peter

Skipping is sadly a national sport in hungary, but not only in public transport, also in taxing - cca. 700k people are paying the 80% of the income tax revenue, that is only 7% of the population - so even worse percentage as by public transport.

in some countries the system can work without inspections - just pick vienna, only 250 km west... the clever thing would be first door entry on buses, but it couldn't work on trams, for trams and metro the entry fences would be a solution. but the local transport co. (bkv) is (can't say anything else) pretty stupid. the inspectors are bad pay so they better work on their own. secondly the ticketing system is also the worst in europe: a ticket is only valid on one line. you are only in bucharest not allowed to change line a ticket. so that means budapest ticket prices are one of the highest in europe - one trip is around 1,1 eur. for this price you can travel at least one hour in rome, madrid - with a much more better system.

so this problem is typically representing hungarian reality: the system is designed bad, companies and authorities don't want to change it - and people do validate their cheating with the idea that the system is bad.

by the way, i made some survey, daily passes are cheaper in vienna, berlin, madrid, rome, praha, bratislava...
bkv is telling since almost 5 years about e-ticketing, as it would be some futuristic high-tech stuff- also warsaw has a system like this.
they tell ticketing which would allow trips on duration are impossible because the "validators" on buses can't print date on tickets- they just make 3 holes. if they would be a normal company they would change them and introduce ticketing on time.

and the most stupid in hungarian public transport: people above 65 are travelling for free - in a country which faces huge deficit. and even more problematic that due to eu regulations the government has to order the public transport from the companies and pay them due to their services and compensate the price reductions given by the gov. - but how due they now the exact number of the passengers which travel for free? this is one of the reasons of the undercapitalisation of publ. transport companies.

Hettie

A one line only bus ticket in Edinburgh is £1.20. LRT, the bus company is owned by the council. I pay £140 a month in council tax (which does not depend on income). Budapest's public transport is way better than Edinburgh's (as observed by a bunch of British nd American friends) so Budapesters shouldn't blame their skipping on a bad system (even better, they should start buying tickets).

Öcsi

Mark wrote: "This isn't really the problem. The difficulty with free, or low-cost public transportation is that there is necessarily limited capacity, and if you abolished fares, or reduced fares to a low level so they don't make people think about the choices they make, you will create unlimited demand."

Actually, Mark, I never gave capacity a second thought. You have a valid point. However, there is road capacity and, in many parts of BP, it was reached many years ago. The only way road capacity can be increased in the inner city is to tear down buildings. And I don't think that's on.

Given all the difficulties the BKV is experiencing (over-capacity, metro 4, cheating, old equipment) I still favour free service. But it need not be introduced suddenly and without serious consideration. If I had a say in the matter, I would push for free public transportation within 20 years. It could be phased in slowly during that period.

I may not have the best idea regarding public transportation but I don't see too many others that go beyond current thinking about how to solve the problem.

Eva S. Balogh

Hettie: "Budapest's public transport is way better than Edinburgh's (as observed by a bunch of British nd American friends)"

Everybody says the same thing. Friends from Toronto, for example. Just people in Budapest don't want to believe it.

Mark

Öcsi: "However, there is road capacity and, in many parts of BP, it was reached many years ago. The only way road capacity can be increased in the inner city is to tear down buildings. And I don't think that's on."

Absolutely, and when there is no means of increasing capacity, demand has to be managed. For this reason I support road charges for driving in major cities. It is done in most major cities in Norway, and London charges for drivers in certain parts of the city on weekdays.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment