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« The first two days: Hungarian extremists in the European Parliament | Main | Hungarian politicians at Tusnádfürdő/Băile Tuşnad, Romania »

July 17, 2009

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Mark

"The latest Orbán utterance on the deficit was revealing. According to him, the Hungarian deficit should be allowed to grow to the average of the European Union, which at the moment is 7%".

I think this is one of the more - potentially at least - sensible things Orbán has said. The "real" economy in Hungary needs the support, if it is ever to return to a growth path. But, I say only potentially, because the extra expenditure has to be tied to a programme to promote growth, and it has to be backed up by a medium-term programme of sustained public expenditure reduction to kick in once growth is restored. Even if he gets his raised deficit the road will be rocky, and I don't there will be much room of populist measures (though at least it offers the chance of avoiding semi-permanent stagnation which is where current policies are leading).

" He announced that he was almost certain that the IMF wouldn't never agree to a further loan on this basis, but he added that he didn't think that Fidesz had such intentions."

No-one really knows what is going on as far as the international organizations are concerned. You may have noticed the situation in Latvia, which was rescued by a financial package put together jointly by the IMF and the EU last autumn. Well, as of today, the EU released the tranche of the money to be paid out in June, but the IMF hasn't - and the Latvian government is making it pretty clear that there is some difference of opinion between the two donors. No-one knows what this difference is: the Wall Street Journal thinks that the IMF is unhappy with cuts in social spending; others think the IMF wants faster deficit reduction. Many seem to think that the IMF wants an orderly devaluation before the whole edifice collapses a la Argentina. Of course, Latvia's underlying situation is worse than Hungary's. And much water will flow down the Danube before next March, but the international context is fluid.

Also there is something rather artificial about the economic situation. It is true that nerves on the financial markets have recovered, but it is far from clear that this reflects any real improvement in the economic fundamentals, particularly in the Eurozone, and especially in CEE, where the situation in some countries appears, if anything to be worsening. I can't help but think that by the autumn things will have changed again.

In such an uncertain climate, it may be responsible for FIDESZ to be vague, as the strategy that seems viable now may be redundant by early next year. The problem, of course, is that FIDESZ's past behavious doesn't inspire trust.

Eva S. Balogh

Mark, I have the feeling that you're quite alone with this position. 99% of all economists say the opposite. As long as there is no economic growth in countries where Hungarian exports go there won't be any great economic growth in Hungary. It would be money down the drain. Matolcsy tried to stimulate internal consumption after 2000 and it was an awful flop.

NWO

Eva

I think Mark is probably correct in his view that counter cyclical Government spending would for a short time improve the GDP and employment situation in Hungary. Look at the policy of the Government 2002-2006. The GDP growth in that period was driven largely by deficit spending, and it was enough to get the Govt. re-elected. The problem with the strategy, however, is that in Hungary it almost certainly will not contribute to long term economic growth and a sustainably healthy economy. First, Government spending in Hungary does not "flow through" to the real economy effectively (too much money is lost or wasted along the way) and is not invested/spent in areas that would lead to a longer term more competitive economy. Second, unlike the U.S., Hungary cannot finance the deficit spending. Moreover, the impact of high deficits and increased borrowing combined with a further loss of credibility would again have potentially devestating consequences on the currency and the banking system.

Mark

Éva: "I have the feeling that you're quite alone with this position."

I've never been one for following crowds.

NWO: "The problem with the strategy, however, is that in Hungary it almost certainly will not contribute to long term economic growth and a sustainably healthy economy"

A counter-cyclical stimulus is by definition a short-term measure. It will only work if it is combined with some depreciation of HUF to address some of the underlying competitiveness problems (in other cases failure to address these issues led to the failure of stimulus-based crisis management in the UK in 1974-6, and France in 1981-3, and lay behind some of the ineffectiveness of Matolcsy's measures). The point isn't that it is a substitute for long-term reform, but that it will make that process more sustainable. And given that a 7% GDP decline in 2009, followed by one of 2-3% next year, isn't a great environment in which to conduct reform, someone, sooner or later, is going to have step in to stabilize the situation if long-term reform is to suceed.

The real question of "strategy" is what that long-term reform process has to address. As Erzsébet Szalai has pointed out recently (http://www.hungary.indymedia.org/node/11266), leaving everything to "market forces" just won't wash. I think all those concerned about the future direction of the economy have to ask themselves some serious questions. Namely:

1. Given that the FDI, manufacturing-based model of growth is exhausted, at least for CEE, because of the likely changes in the world economy following this crisis, what will be Hungary's sources of growth in future?
2. How can Hungary manage the tensions created by its hugely unfavourable demographics? In this situation, how does it create a larger cake, while creating an equitable settlement regarding the division of that cake between young and old?
3. Given that the state will continue to be important for many people, no-one will be able to "roll it back" for the foreseeable future. Therefore, how can its operation, its accountability, and its efficiency be improved?
4. Because of the legacy of cheap Soviet gas and oil Hungary is very dependent on fossil fuel consumption. We know that despite the recession inspired price fluctuation the long-term trends in energy prices are upwards, and because of climate change the environmental costs of maintaining this model are severe. We also know that Hungary is less far down the road - and requires more investment - that western Europe to manage the transition to a low-carbon economy. How is this going to be done?
5. Given the value that the population places on economic security, how can a welfare net be created which is both sustainable and satisfied these demands?

I'd suggest that answering these questions suggests quite a major change in everyone's economic strategies.

Eva S. Balogh

NWO: "Look at the policy of the Government 2002-2006. The GDP growth in that period was driven largely by deficit spending, and it was enough to get the Govt. re-elected."

I remember differently. GDP was going down around 20002 and never substantially went up afterwards. At the time of tight budget (Horn government and the first two years of Orban government) economic growth was rapid.

Mark

Éva: " GDP was going down around 20002 and never substantially went up afterwards. At the time of tight budget (Horn government and the first two years of Orban government) economic growth was rapid."

According the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe Hungary recorded an annual average rate of GDP growth of 4% from 1996 to 2000, and 3.8% between 2001 and 2005 (www.unece.org/oes/disc_papers/ECE_DP_2006-1.pdf) Table 5

Eva S. Balogh

Mark: "According the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe Hungary recorded an annual average rate of GDP growth of 4% from 1996 to 2000, and 3.8% between 2001 and 2005"

I will look it up but I remember that when Orban took over the growth was over 5%. In 2002 it was 3.5%. Yesterday I looked up Tina Rosenberg's piece in NYT and there it is mentioned that when Orban won the Hungarian Stock Exchange dropped something like 8%. Eventually it recovered when people realized that Orban's promises were only promises never to be fulfilled. And when he went into high gear and tried to stimulate internal consumption by spending it was not a success story. It was the beginning of the slippery slope. For this attempt to be continued by Medgyessy Hungarians have been paying ever since.

Leeflang

Mark: "Given that the FDI, manufacturing-based model of growth is exhausted, at least for CEE...."

I really don't see why this should be the case. On the contrary, the current worldwide crisis might push more high-value added production (and R&D, back offices, outsourcing operations etc)in the CEE direction once things start picking up again in a half a year to a years time. There is no doubt that many companies shutting down production in Western Europe today will, once their stocks are depleted and they decide to start producing again, will not want cheaper and more flexible locations to build extra capacity.
True, recovery might be shallow and there might be a new dip (a W-shaped recession/recovery), but once Germany will start producing and consuming again, the Hungarian economy as it is might recover in as fast a pace as it has collapsed over the past half year. And thank god the Bajnai goverment is there to repair some of the most notorious consequences of the left-wing Orbán-Medgyesi populism of the past years.
Let's just hope a Fidesz government under president Orbán - once they ztake over - will be at least a little bit sensible in the financial/economic field (which is a huge thing to hope for).

Hank

NWO

Mark:

The irony is that if there is a politician in Hungary who articulates an economic policy most similar to what you have advocated, it is Orban.

On your specific points, I am not 100% sure the FDI driven manufacturing model is dead (business sees the risk of investing further into Eastern Europe, and do not want to rely on 100% outsourcing of production to the Far East), though I agree that there is an increasingly limited life expectancy to this strategy. Obviously, there is no easy answer to what can and should come next. Given Hungary cannot rely on tourism like Austria or Croatia, it must be some combination of lighter manufacturing, logistics, agriculture and services. Outsourcing, IT, medical tourism are all possibilities, but none are big enough to create the jobs lacking in this country and they all require a long term devalued currency to keep Hungary competitive. Regardless, successful investment in education is essential for the future.

Finally, I do not see any real way to close the gap between the different parts of the Country. The North East is destined to continue to be the Hungary's version of the Midwest in the U.S.--a post industrial wasteland. The SE (around Szeged) still has an opportunity if the local economy in the region can further integrate into the economies of Romania and Szerbia.

Mark

NWO: "The irony is that if there is a politician in Hungary who articulates an economic policy most similar to what you have advocated, it is Orban."

Yes, it is a bit worrying, isn't it?

Hank: "I really don't see why this should be the case."

I'm sure you are right about the thinking of individual firms and managers. If, however, they go down that route the cumulative economic effect will be to delay the return to growth. The issue, put very simply, is who is going to buy all of these cheaper products. While cost cutting in western Europe may be rational from the perspective of an individual firm, it will reduce aggregate demand. It is important to remember that over the last business cycle this strategy only made economic sense because a small number of rich economies were able to borrow huge sums against inflated house prices to solve the problem on the demand side. We must remember that it was the puncturing of this solution that is the immediate cause of the current global problems (though it is a shame that some people haven't focussed on the underlying issues). If one were very optimistic one could imagine - of these countries - that Australia might return to the levels of debt-financed spending seen before the crash. Undoubtedly, the USA and the UK will have to borrow less, save more, and export more. And that is not to mention Spain and Ireland. Therefore you have to ask who will buy these goods. And, though there are lots of new consumers in east and south Asia these do not have to sort of incomes that would be able to buy goods produced at European (even at CEE) wages.

I could believe that the model we have had returns for four to five years (and for that reason NWO scenario's of an "an increasingly limited life expectancy to this strategy" is a plausible one), but it is difficult then to see how the economy of the EU15 would be anything other than - at best - stagnant. And in the situation, even if Hungary was relatively successful, I don't think it would protect even its current living standard. And that's just not mention a range of other problems with the model to do with increases in transportation costs etc.

We know too that Hungary has been in something of an impasse with FDI since 2001, for good reasons that we've debated in depth before.

Bob

So FIDESZ is "fiscally irresponsible".

What would you call the Gyurcsany/Bajnai total disaster? Why would anyone want to hang onto the miserable failure called MSZP? Never mind Jobbik, the real extremists are Bajnai, Draskovics and the rest. They are the trouble-makers, not the Guard. Let's worry about how much more damage the current government is going to do before their time is up. We're on a speeding bus, and the driver is too drunk to realize that he's blind. And you guys are busy attacking the only person who's trying to stop this madness. Brilliant.

International monetary fund IMF

To achieve its goals, the IMF focuses and advises on the macroeconomic policies of a country, which affect its exchange rate and its government's budget, money and credit management.

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