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« The Carpathian Basin and the Hungarian conquest | Main | Hungary and Slovakia: Perhaps there is hope »

August 30, 2009

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Pistefka

I have always wondered how Vojtěch/Wojciech gets "translated" as Adalbert. Now with the magic of Google I have discovered that Vojtěch was his given name and that he later adopted the name Adalbert from his mentor Adalbert of Magdeburg. He was thenceforth known as Adalbert Vojtěch.
So saying that Adalbert is a translation of Vojtěch is rather misleading. It is a bit like saying that Stephen is a translation of Vajk!

Stil, plenty of Poles and Czechs called Vojtěch or Wojciech will tell you that their name in English "means Adalbert."

Eva S. Balogh

Pistefka: "Now with the magic of Google I have discovered that Vojtěch was his given name and that he later adopted the name Adalbert from his mentor Adalbert of Magdeburg."

Thanks, I didn't know that either.

ovidiu

"Because a kingdom where only one language is spoken and only one custom is followed is weak and fragile."

I do not fully understand you, Eva. Maybe I have a brain-hiccup but to me he seems to be talking about a multi-national state.
And it sounds crazy since the reality has shown that exactly the opposite is true.
Maybe there was a different mentality back then which no ethnic nationalism ("national consciousness") and this is today completely incomprehensible.

Something is missing in understanding the politics of those times.

Eva S. Balogh

Ovidiu: "I do not fully understand you, Eva. Maybe I have a brain-hiccup but to me he seems to be talking about a multi-national state."

No, I don't think so. The foreigners he invited, the Bavarian soldiers, priests, artisans were not liked by the majority of his countrymen. He is simply telling Imre to stick by them, defend them because they are useful. Indeed, they were very useful for example in Stephen's fight against Koppány. The head of the army was a Bavarian soldier.

David

Latin presumably was the official language of Hungary for most of its existence (until the 19th century).

ovidiu

Ok, now I see your point, Eva.
He was talking about small communities without a political significance, not big enough to engage in nation building.
Yes, as such he was right and it was typical during the middle ages. For instance the Ottomans were happy to accept the Jews expelled from Spain because they were known for their skills in trade and banking. The Russian Tsar Peter invited French, Germans and Flemish scholars and artisans to help Russia form a bureaucratic and trade/manufacturing elite, and so on.

Eva S. Balogh

Ovidiu: "Ok, now I see your point, Eva.
He was talking about small communities without a political significance, not big enough to engage in nation building."

Exactly. Here he is not talking about "settlers." Although you are quite right that settlers were welcome in those days. See, for example, the Saxons in Transylvania or German settlers, mostly artisans, in somewhat larger cities. Buda was practically German in the the middle ages and again after the Turks left. Or, think of the Serbs who settled in the Bacska-Banat region (Voivodina today). My hometown, Pécs, was practically uninhabited after the Turks left because the population by then was mostly Bosnian who had left with the Turkish troops. In the middle of the 19th century Pécs was still a German city, including some of my ancestors who came at the beginning of the 18th century from different German provinces. They were really recruited and offered all sorts of privileges.

But in those days nationality was not really important. See what I said at the beginning: Hungarian was everybody who was the subject of the king. Period.

Eva S. Balogh

David: "Latin presumably was the official language of Hungary for most of its existence (until the 19th century."

It was, but that doesn't mean that a very early ruler knew either to read or write or that he knew Latin. According to Hungarian historians most likely he didn't. The knowledge of reading and writing spread very slowly. The first lengthier Hungarian text, the Funeral Oration dates from the very end of the twelfth century. By the way, Wikipedia has the text in the original, in modern Hungarian, and in English. It's worth taking a look at it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral_Sermon_and_Prayer

ovidiu

>Hungarian was everybody who was the subject of the king. Period.

Yes, we have a fixed-ideea with ethnicity and forget that the "ethno-political idea" was brought into life only at the end of 18th century by the French Revolution.
Afterwards it swept as fire along all Europe and each-ethnic group launched itself into building its own "nation-state" (and started "cleansing" the other ethnic-groups which got in the way of achieveing territorial continuity).

Because we have been born in this (post French-revolution) political order (or political-logic) we take it as self evident and we can not think without attempting to order the information according to this mind-set when we read ancient history.

But you are right, before the French-revolution the key issue politically was the allegianace to the king not the ethnicity. There was no "ethnic nationalism" back then, there was state (king)loyalty.
Just as it was the "roman-citizenship" during the Roman Empire. "Romanus" was not a ethnic-group but every free-man/citizen of the Empire regardless of his ethnicity.

Or "American" today, they are a nation, the American nation but they are not an ethnic (not even a racial) group.

Eva S. Balogh

Ovidiu: "Or "American" today, they are a nation, the American nation but they are not an ethnic (not even a racial) group."

You know what's interesting? They never talk about "American nation." They talk about "Americans" or the "American people."

David

Ovidiu, I agree with you when it comes to political alliegence. The idea of "national self-determination" is a modern one with a bloody history.

Despite this, however, in earlier times there was an ethnic conciousness of some sort, particularly in western/central Europe. In the Balkans the consciousness seems more religious (Turk vs Greek seems to have originally been a matter of Islam/Orthodox not language).

Unfortunately the modern world has largely failed in creating multi-ethnic/national states. It is only largely settler states such as the US or Australia where this has been successful.

In addition to this lack of success, the very postmodern desire for some sort of nebulous "authenticity" also seems to be feeding into a revival of ethic nationalism. If the state does not reflect some idealised notion of your ethnicity then you are being oppressed and living as a rootless foreigner in your own country.


David

Ovidiu, I agree with you when it comes to political alliegence. The idea of "national self-determination" is a modern one with a bloody history.

Despite this, however, in earlier times there was an ethnic conciousness of some sort, particularly in western/central Europe. In the Balkans the consciousness seems more religious (Turk vs Greek seems to have originally been a matter of Islam/Orthodox not language).

Unfortunately the modern world has largely failed in creating multi-ethnic/national states. It is only largely settler states such as the US or Australia where this has been successful.

In addition to this lack of success, the very postmodern desire for some sort of nebulous "authenticity" also seems to be feeding into a revival of ethic nationalism. If the state does not reflect some idealised notion of your ethnicity then you are being oppressed and living as a rootless foreigner in your own country.


Erik the Reader

One should read At The Gate of Christendom Jews, Muslims and 'Pagans' in Medieval Hungary c.1000 - c.1300 by Nora Berend, Cambridge University Press. It is far fetched to consider Aba Samuel a jewish convert, also many point out he was of 'izmaelita' muslim origin (as many of Pechenegs, Cumanians, Böszörménys settled down in Hungary in different waves. Mizse who became the nádor of Hungary the highest dignitary in the Kingdom of Hungary after the king was of muslim origin.) Note: Kabars rebelled against the Khazar Khaganate, the rebellion was against the conversion to Judaism.

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