Growing anti-Semitism in Hungary

It would take far too long to list the growing number of small and not so small incidents with anti-Semitic overtones. Few capture the imagination of the foreign press. However, yesterday The Jerusalem Post reported that a rabbi's house situated not far from the Great Synagogue was stoned by unknown assailants during seder. A representative of the Jewish Agency was among the guests when stones were thrown through the windows of the house around 11 p.m. The guests were frightened but they went on with the seder when about half an hour later another rock was thrown through the window. At that time they decided to call the police who subsequently monitored the house and its surroundings. Nonetheless, another very forcefully thrown rock hit the window and those present are fairly certain that some kind of primitive projectile like a slingshot was used and from some distance. The police are investigating. The charge apparently is "causing material damage." TASZ (Társaság a Szabadságjogokért/Society for Human Rights) I think correctly pointed out that this is more than "causing material damage." This is violence against members of a certain group and thus a serious crime.

Anti-Semitic slogans and defacements of election posters with Jewish themes are daily affairs. One of the most notorious is a socialist poster depicting Attila Mesterházy which somebody completely "rewrote." For days internet users argued about the authenticity of the poster. They couldn't decide whether it was a photoshop job or for real. Opinions differed: some people claimed that if it was a photoshop job it was a bad one. Others, including people close to the socialist party, claimed that it couldn't be for real. Well, a couple of days ago, the issue was settled. 168 Óra sent out a photographer and took a picture of the real thing. For those of you who don't know the language. Instead of Mester- someone put in the word "szar-" meaning "shit." "Szarházi" could be translated as shithead. Attila became "zsidó" that is Jew. The words on the green background were changed to "új izraeli program" (new Israeli program) and at the bottom an untranslatable and stupid remark about the holocaust (holokauszt in Hungarian) that was changed into hollókoszt. Holló means raven and koszt means food that should be "fed to one's mother." Meaning the holocaust didn't really happen. On Mesterházy's lapel a Star of David can be seen.

Thus it should come as no surprise that some Hungarians of Jewish heritage don't feel safe in Hungary and feel like leaving the country. It cannot be a coincidence that a song sung by Zsuzsa Koncz, a famous Hungarian singer, and available on video on YouTube, is making a comeback. The lyrics were written by János Bródy and the music by Péter Gerendás in 1992 when István Csurka began his anti-Semitic campaign that led to his expulsion from MDF and the establishment of MIÉP that in the 1990s managed to get 200-300,000 people on the streets. In 1998 the party won more than 5 percent of the votes and therefore was represented in parliament. It is definitely worth listening to the song. For those who don't understand Hungarian here is a rough translation. The title of the song is: One-hundred-Year-Old Railway Station.

"There are times when one must go/When the sign appears on the wall/He wasn't young/But he felt that he might die of sorrow/When he stood by the rails one day at dawn/On that hundred-year-old station.

I say farewell, I say farewell/This is no longer my home/I say farewell, I say farewell/But I leave my heart here for ever/But I leave my heart here for ever.

On the streets hatred marched/And on the horizon reappeared the past/And he knew that he must go/Because everything begins the same/And he just stood there at dawn/On that one-hundred-year-old station.

I say farewell, I say farewell/This is no longer my home/I say farewell, I say farewell/But I leave my heart here for ever/But I leave my heart here for ever.

There was noise at the railroad station/And as if an old film had stood there for a long time/An old film, an odd film/And the picture looked so familiar.

I say farewell, I say farewell/This is no longer my home/I say farewell, I say farewell/But I leave my heart here for ever/But I leave my heart here for ever."

More than ten thousand people have viewed the video in the last few days.

Comments

[NWO]

Anti-Semitism has always been a problem in Hungary. And like other countries, it gets worse at times of economic crisis. This is the case in Hungary now where one can hear anti-semitic comments in casual conversation and see anti-semitic graffitti everywhere. BTW, during the 2002 and 2006 election cycle there was exactly the same type of defacing of political posters.
But I would not overstate (yet) the situtaion. As all the articles about the Passover disturbance stated, while one seder was "disturbed" (and I do not want to make light of this as it is a serious incident), a thousand were not. And there is no evidence that this was organized by Jobbik or the Magyar Garda or any other organized political group.
I do not expect a rising tide of further anti-semitism under a FIDESZ government; in fact, I think senior officials in FIDESZ will be sensitive to this issue (and if anything open itself up to attacks from a disgruntaled radicals that FIDESZ is also full of Jew lovers).

The level of hatred in Hungary is depressing. People like Hegedus and Pörsze are truly despicable, and I will be deeply troubled if and when openly anti-semitic candidates are elected to Parliament (as will certainly occur). But day in and day out, Jews (in Budapest)-unlike the Roma (in Hungary generally)-do not have to fear for their safety.

It is sad what is happening, but let us not pretend that the Passover night incident was the first rock thrown in a new Hungarian Kristallnacht.

[Eva S. Balogh]

NWO: "It is sad what is happening, but let us not pretend that the Passover night incident was the first rock thrown in a new Hungarian Kristallnacht."

Sure, but Hungarian Jews feel threatened and very upset. Understandably.

[Thrasymachus]

I warned you. I warned you all repeatedly. That an acceleration in anti-Semitism would be a direct consequence of the introduction of the anti-holocaust-denial law, and its violation of Hungary's constitutional protection of freedom of speech, that you ALL clamoured for!

Did you listen? Did you heck!
And here we are.

And before you all fall over each other to call me a Nazi... again. When all that has happened is me reminding you, again. Of what I predicted coming to pass, again. Read Adam LeBor's recent piece on this in The Jewish Chronicle.

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/29844/a-bad-law-against-holocaust-denial

Mr LeBor is a journalist for the London Times. And is highly respected here as an occasional comment poster.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Thrasymachus: "I warned you. I warned you all repeatedly. That an acceleration in anti-Semitism would be a direct consequence of the introduction of the anti-holocaust-denial law"

Anti-semitism is growing steadily for a number of years. The new holocaust-denial law has nothing to do with it. The real cause of it is the appearance and propaganda of Jobbik.

[Karl Pfeifer]

@Thrasymachus@ No, your logic is wrong. In Austria a law exists which is forbidding the denial of National-socialist crimes. Not only of holocaust since the first victims in Austria were Thousands of so called handicapped persons who were killed in Hartheim (Upper Austria) before the Holocaust started.
To believe, that those throwing stones into a window of a rabbi were motivated by a law is not realistic. There is a rabble, which is only motivated by hatred against those who are perceived as different. I doubt the capability of most Hungarians to recognise (except in the case of religious persons) a Jew. And the great majority of Hungarians outside Budapest and some towns do not know any Jew.
And in Austria the law had some salutary effects. For instance when Barbara Rosenkranz the candidate for the presidency in Austria made some ambiguous remarks on this law public opinion turned against her.
So instead of blaming laws or the economic crisis, it would be preferable to look into the question why do so many Hungarians need antisemitism in order to define themselves as "true Hungarians" (igazi magyarok).
To recognise facts of History can hurt the national ego, for there was no other country in Europe where the local administration had taken care with anticipatory obedience within six weeks to deport more than 500.000 of their own citizens. In a country where Miklos Horthy was rehabilitated, it is customary to blame for this crime the arrow cross when in reality it was the administration of Horthy responsible. Fact is, Horthy was able to stop deportation of Budapest Jews in July 1944 so he could have done so without any risk before that.
Eva Balogh has shown how many of Jobbik’s politicians are Historians or students of History. This is not just an accident.

[Thrasymachus]

@Eva S. Balogh
"The new holocaust-denial law has nothing to do with it. The real cause of it is the appearance and propaganda of Jobbik."
-----
I am used to commenting on Politics.hu where wishful thinking alone is supposed to constitute argument, I did not expect to see it from you.

Where please in my comment did I use the word "cause" of anti-Semitism? I did not, the word I chose is "accelerate."

And if you think Jobbik to be the sole "cause" of Hungarian anti-Semitism, as a former supposed '56 veteran, I think you are being mightily disingenuous.

Nevertheless, if the objective is to decrease, not increase, anti-Semitism in Hungary. Then the first step must be to recognize that impetus operates on both sides.

Continue to pretend, as you do, that it doesn't: then you wilfully deceive your readership and are complicit in a tissue of lies; worthy, just as much, of the label "propaganda" that you would use against others.

- The Israeli president Peres, declares his nation is "buying up Hungary." The Hungarian press deliberately dismiss it, you laugh it off... but this cannot, *possibly*, be a source of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Can it? No!
It's Jobbik.

- Gyurcsány uses the money given to him by the EU for the protection of the common EU borders, to purchase through his Israeli contacts, Israeli manufactured water cannon
and riot equipment that he uses to mercilessly keep himself in power during the unrest of October 2006... but this cannot, *possibly*, be a source of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Can it? No!
It's Jobbik.

- Wiesel comes to Hungary demanding such a thought-crime law, which tears up the constitutional protection of freedom of speech Hungarians have enjoyed for 20 years, it is passed. The President who previously called the exact same law un-constitutional and refused to pass it, now does so... but this cannot, *possibly*, be a source of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Can it? No! It's Jobbik.

- Bajani becomes Prime Minister, where is his first foreign visit? Is it to Romania, or Serbia, or Slovakia to visit Hungarian communities that are subject to state-sanctioned persecution? Nope. He goes of to bow and scrape in Israel of course... but this cannot, *possibly*, be a source of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Can it? No!
It's Jobbik.

- In fact a succession of front bench Hungarian politicians cynically maintain dual Hungarian and Israeli nationality. Surely quite sickeningly conscious that this grants their corruption and wholesale plunder of the Hungarian public purse a perverse degree of immunity. Because they are now able to call anyone who might dare draw attention to their systematic thievery an "anti-Semite" ...but this cannot, *possibly*, be a source of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Can it? No!
It's Jobbik.

- Israeli war planes fly over Budapest as a Syrian national is killed on the city's streets. Their grant to fly over a civilian, not military, airport, is granted at a moment's notice, through backchannels, and completely at odds with established procedure. So much so that an extraordinary parliamentary committee is convened.
And even the Jewish reporter Betlen János remarks to Morvai on Ma Reggel, that the timing of this penetration of sovereign Hungarian airspace by the craft of a foreign military power is suspicious, it's almost as if Jobbik had "orchestrated" it. (!!!!!)
...but this cannot, *possibly*, be a source of anti-Semitism in Hungary. Can it? No!
It's Jobbik.

[Thrasymachus]

@Karl Pfeifer
"No, your logic is wrong."
-----
No Sir, it is your comparison that is invalid.

Austria did not end up on this side of the iron curtain. Austrians in the 1950s who blurted out the wrong thing in a corner café did not find themselves hauled off to 60 Andrássy út to have confessions tortured out of them, then to disappear, never to be seen again, having been given 15 years hard labour at Recsk.

It is the tortured screams and suffering of these people which earned Hungarians the consitutional protections of freedom of speech enshrined inalianably in our constitution.

I do not care one jot for European or Hungarian intellectuals who can barely hide their basic contention that Hungarians are not to be trusted with free speech. These people did not earn these rights. They have no warrant to justify their removal.

It is this history of suffering under Communism, that makes the thought-crime holocaust denial legislation passed a scandal and an outrage.

But ask the likes of Dr Balogh and she'll tell you we were all skipping happily through cornfields revelling in the glories of the revolution.

[Karl Pfeifer]

@Thrasymachus@ strange logic, to blame Rakosi for today's rampant antisemitism, why don't you go back to Bela Kun?
Do you know that more Hungarians were hanged by the Kadar-regime than by the Rakosi regime? Do you believe a Hungarian taken to the gallows after the uprising of 1956 was crushed had a better feeling because Kádár was baptised as a catholic?
There were 20 years of free speech in Hungary. The upper court of Budapest has overturned the conviction of Lóránt Hegedüs jun, because to demand the exclusion of Jews is not incitement. No Austrian clergyman would express such things, not because of law, but because the great majority of Christians would not accept it. Hungarian anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Rakosi, Bela Kun or with actual Jews. It is a problem of national identity as I have stated.
So where is Hungary now with "free speech"?
Gábor Vona can promise to close down a few tv stations, and that does not disturb "protectors of free speech" of Jobbik.

I have published a long text on why I am for the Austrian laws forbidding National-Socialist activities. You can find it on

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/journal/index.php?journal_id=10&article_id=40

As far as Hungary is concerned, we will see if this freedom of speech will be respected in future. I am very curious.

[Thrasymachus]

@Karl Pfeifer
"@Thrasymachus@ strange logic, to blame Rakosi for today's rampant antisemitism, why don't you go back to Bela Kun?"
-----
What point is there in arguing at all if you continue being deliberately disingenuous? None.
Where have I said anything of the kind? Nowhere.
(Yet again a person who thinks that argument consists of defeating positions you arbitrarily decide to imagine that your opponent holds.)

Your logic seems to be that Hungarians are entitled to freedom of speech, provided they don't use it to express anti-Semitism. But that is not how freedom of speech works. Period.

The Hungarian people have earned through their suffering the right to say whatever they please. This is my argument. You have neither engaged it nor addressed it.

Oh. And I have covered the TV station rejoinder at length here before, and shown it up to be so much nonsense, so excuse me if I do not do so again.

But if you must witter on about National Socialism and supposed "rampant anti-Semitism" I would ask you, once more, what effect the events I listed in my reply to Dr Balogh, would be likely to have on such sentiment?
I would further ask what responsibility - whatsoever - Jobbik holds for the occurance of any such events?
(Answers...
Q1: Rather significant.
Q2: None at all.)

I would remind you also, that you neither engaged nor addressed this point, either.

Now feel free to talk some more about Béla Kun, for some reason. A subject I never raised, discussed nor mentioned. Or remark again about what would be unacceptable for an Austrian clergymen, a country-to-country comparison I have already convincingly dismissed as invalid, because we do not share the same history.

[Vándorló]

@Thrasymachus: Lots of nonsense in your ramblings, so only going to pick on one specific fact since I'm short of time. The three water-cannon that were bought in April 2007 following the riots were Mercedes (who are owned by Daimler AG, a German company). As I commented elsewhere at the time: 'They have just bought three new (Mercedes) water cannon that can deliver 1200 litres of water at 12 bar pressure per minute. All for the bargain price of 2.2 billion forints.' It had nothing to do with Israeli money etc... http://www.hirtv.hu/belfold/?article_hid=147377

[Thrasymachus]

@Vándolró
"Lots of nonsense in your ramblings, so only going to pick on one specific fact since I'm short of time."
-----
So in other words you in fact only think you have an answer to point No. 2. But have none to points 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6. And instead call them "rambling" while scurrying off claiming a lack of time.

Do you dispute Perez's statement?
No you can't because it's a fact.

Do you dispute Wiesel's statement, and Sólyom's change of heart?
No you can't because these are facts.

Bajnai's visit? Fact.
Dual nationalities? Fact.
Israeli spy plane scandal? Fact.

Again no-one is answering me.
Yet, I couldn't be making my question more clear and more straightforward!!

What effect do these events have on Hungarian anti-Semitism?
And what does their comission have at all to do with Jobbik?

Jobbik refelects the sentiment, produced in the people, caused by the events. This is my position.

What Dr Balogh and everyone else here would have me believe, is an absurdity of an equation in which Jobbik causes the sentiment, the people are impotent, and the events are irrelvant.

Explain to me please how this is possible.
It is all I ask.

[Vándorló]

@Thrasymachus: Apologies for the 'hit and run', but I do have a program to finish and this is just to keep my mind from going off the rails.

If it speeds up things, statements and quotes are all clearly reported. Their interpretation is another thing entirely. I don't agree the Israeli spy planes was a scandal, more your standard Hungarian administrative botch job. I'd say if Turkey was happy to let them through their air space that says enough for me (given Turkey's role in brokering with Syria etc...).

I don't see how enactment of a law could possibly justify or explain direct physical violence. In normal democracies you take your anger out on the law makers by appropriate means and work to achieve a consensus. Either that or you put up with the "tyranny of the majority". Bricks through windows of civilian houses can never be excused as you would like to.

Anyway, since we are talking provocative middle eastern connections, what do you make of the stories that keep surfacing about Vona, Eduardo Rózsa-Flores and al-Kaida? http://www.hetek.hu/fokusz/201004/terroristaszalak_a_magyar_belpolitikaban

[Thrasymachus]

@Vámdorló
"I don't see how enactment of a law could possibly justify or explain direct physical violence... ...Bricks through windows of civilian houses can never be excused as you would like to."
-----
You too?? Yet again I am being asked to defend a position, I have never held. As if I said anything of the kind!

Where did I "excuse" or "justify"? I never did! But you go too far when you say it can't "explain." "Explain" is PRECISELY what it can do.

Mr LeBor thinks so. He recognized that the denial law is ill-conceived, and will play right into the hands of the "far-Right." Why is he permitted to say so, but for some reason I am not, and my doing so consitutes a green light for the stoning of rabbis' houses?

It confirms in the minds of many the scenario in which Magyar values (like the free speech protection in the conittution) are to be considered disposable and insiginficant, if Israeli sensibilities are offended, over events hardly any living Hungarian had a hand in. For someone to have been 20 in 1943 they must be 87 today; and you and I both know that Hungarian life expectancy just isn't that good anymore.

The point? Is, as I said, that persecution is happening of millions of Magyars NOW. But the media both national and international, couldn't give a damn! The Slovak language law is a recipe for cultro-ethnic cleansing. It is a Nuremberg-esque law. Where is the outrage? Where are the international courts of enquiry? Nothing.

These facts feed the resentment. The feeling of Hungarians that they are an irrelevance. But were they to be Jews, everyone would be concerned over their fate.

This is the wellspring of modern Hungarian anti-Semitism, and Jobbik is reflectng it. NOT producing it.

As I said, Betlen, was willing to recognize the cause and effect in his remark to Morvai over the Israeli military flight. So much so that he boobed and said he wouldn't be surprised if Jobbik had a hand in it. He is a Jew, a man of a great intellect, and Jobbik's fiercest critic and interogator on TV. Yet, again, HE is able to recognize this connection. That it is events like this that make things worse.

But if I dare say so, I'm supposed to be some sort of pseudo pogrom apologist. Sheesh!

(And in response to your changing of the subject I give them just as much credence as I do the suggestion that Jobbik is funded by bank robbers. In other words I consider it ludicrous. The desparate act of the Fidesz dirty tricks brigade which is staring down the barrel of losing their 2/3rds. As indeed I think you're possibly smart enough to recognize yourself.

And that all these stories, penis-pumps etc. are ample illustrations of the media and other parties inabilities to fault the Jobbik manifesto; because if they could: THAT's what they'd be doing instead.

Anyway. My turn to run now. There is a flight with my name on it. Happy Easter.)

[OneTwoThree testing]

You might have added Fidesz posters that are being defaced with "Likud"

@ Trashman. All these things you list are incidents,half truths and untruths,which only to anti-Semites are evidence of some vast conspiracy. Jocular remarks made by Simon Peres are blown up by anti-Semites out of all proportion. Peres most likely didn't consider public opinion effects of his remarks in Hungary, because he doesn't CARE about Hungary.No-one in their right mind believes Israel has any significant interest over here at all.

A valid opinion held by a private citizen (Wiesel) is witout a shred of evidence insinuated to be instrumental in Solyom's change of heart. As if Wiesel put a gun to his head!

The water cannon story you listed is an outright lie,as shwon above. Why Bajnai's first visit was to Israel? The visit had probably been planned months, if not years ahead. It is simply the mechanics of government rolling on after a change of figureheads. Everyone who has followed the spy plane story know this kind of thing goes on all the time. It is only a scandal because it was an ISRAELI plane.

To any sane person, all these incidents are just that - incidents. Only anti-Semities make them into something bigger than what they are.

These incidents don't fuel anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism blows up these incidents.

As to laws outlawing holocaust denial - these are a matter of taste. Arguabely they could be covered by existing laws governing racial hatred, so their existence is symbolic. They are hardly evidence of anti-democratic attitudes. The USA and UK have no such laws. Countries whith more direct experience of the holocaust frequently do, such as Holland and Germany. These are among the most democratic states in the world. They do not consider racial hatred to be normally permitted under freedom of speech.

[Thrasymachus]

@OneTwoThree testing
"It is only a scandal because it was an ISRAELI plane.
To any sane person, all these incidents are just that - incidents. Only anti-Semities make them into something bigger than what they are.
These incidents don't fuel anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism blows up these incidents."
-----
Then prove your point. Apply reciprocity.

Replace the countries. Swap Hungary for Israel, and vice-versa.

Imagine that Sólyom had said his people were buying up Israel. That Israeli state assets were being sold off to Hungarians at suscpiciously knock-down prices. That a Hungarian "private citizen" came over to Jerusalem demanding changes to the Israeli consitution that are then enacted by their President. That Hungarian spy planes were buzzing Ben Gurion as a Slovak was assassinated on the streets of Tel Aviv, because this kind of thing, any sane person will tell you, just "goes on all the time."

Now tell me again, how these would be considered just "incidents" by Jews in Israel. And it is only anti-Gentile conspiracy nuts who would be thinking otherwise.

[Eva S. Balogh]

OneTwoThree: "You might have added Fidesz posters that are being defaced with "Likud" @ Trashman."

I was thinking of including one where someone made an Orthodox Jew out of Orbán. I saw a picture like that in Népszava.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Anti-semitism has a long history in Hungary but according to all polls the number of extremists, including anti-semites, doubled in the last few years. And that growth has a lot to do with Fidesz's behavior since Orbán lost the elections in 2002. It is Fidesz that is most responsible for the appearance of Jobbik. Their behavior opened the gate to the flood of filth that is spreading in the country

[Pete H.]

@Thrasymachus,
Your concern regarding most of your points is a result of your viewing them through an antisemitic lens.
Israeli spy planes - not a spying mission, but rather a long-distance training mission by a country with a military cooperation agreement with NATO. Hungarian agencies have serious communication issues. That's the only reason for concern.
Joke about Israel buying up real estate - does that fact that Israel investments in Hungary are minor compared to EU members states and even dwarfed by US investments matter to you? Most foreign investment in Hungarian real estate is by Austrians and Germans. Were are the anti-Germanic feelings about this?
If you can't see how a party that resurrects the symbols of the Hungarian holocaust (Garda = Arrow Cross Squads) and calls for the rehabilitation of more of them (Gendarmes) does not further normalize antisemitism, than you are blind to the ugliness Jobbik has stoked in Hungary.

[Thrasymachus]

@Pete H.
"Your concern regarding most of your points is a result of your viewing them through an antisemitic lens...
...Most foreign investment in Hungarian real estate is by Austrians and Germans. Were are the anti-Germanic feelings about this?"
-----
Yes of course, I forgot. When you've lost the argument for certain. Just call your interlocutor an anti-Semite.

By the way where are the Austrian military jets buzzing Ferihegy? The changing of Hungarian consitutional principles because of Austrian demands? The Austrian president's bombast over the ownership of Hungary?

Really, try and at least put - some - effort in, if you really can't help but call me an anti-Semite, Arrow Cross sympathizing pogrom apologist *rolls eyes*, at least pay my arguments some lip service first?

So if you expect to be taken seriously, please answer my question about reciprocity above...

If I am veiwing things through an anti-Semitic lens, answer my challenge to OneTwoThree: prove it! Explain how if the exact same things happened in Israel vice-versa, they would be dismissed as just "incidents."
Tell me that with a straight face.
TRY TO.

Or maybe you could just substitute rational argument with libelling me as an anti-Semite, again? Whatever tickles your fancy, really.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Thrasymachus: "By the way where are the Austrian military jets buzzing Ferihegy? "

Daily all sorts of foreign planes fly over the country. NATO planes don't even have to ask for permission. The Israeli pilots received permission to fly over Turkey, Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. Just as Hungarian planes are flying all over with either permission or by simply announcing their intentions.

It is not really worth talking to you because you don't even know the facts or if you know them you manage to twist everything according to your peculiar views. I think we are all just wasting our time answering your letters.

[Pete H.]

@Thrasymachus
I think it may be you who lost an argument when you claim Israeli Jets were "buzzing" Ferihegy. When in reality they just performed a very orderly "touch and go" maneuver that was approved by NATO.
Answer your question? - the Israelis wouldn't even wink. They have no reason to think Hungary is a threat and neither does Hungary have any sane reason to think Israel is a threat.
And I am only concerned about being taken seriously by people who make serious arguments in turn.

[Thrasymachus]

@Eva S. Balogh
"It is not really worth talking to you because you don't even know the facts or if you know them you manage to twist everything according to your peculiar views. I think we are all just wasting our time answering your letters."
-----
Not civilian airports Dr Balogh. Military ones. But of course. I do not know "the facts" as you would have us believe them, do I?
And those I do, I "twist." Like "I" always do.
It's not that I just present them...
And ask if anyone can give explanations more plausible...
Than the ones I suggest...

In passing, let me assure you, that a secure, rational and well-argued position, does not lend itself quite so easily to being "twisted."

Nevertheless, let me remind you of your words, just above:

"It is Fidesz that is most responsible for the appearance of Jobbik. Their behaviour opened the gate to the flood of filth that is spreading in the country."

I can think of no finer response to this than the answer given this week by the Jobbik spokeswoman Dóra Dúró on TV2, when asked about the previous spokesman who resigned because he had been smoking dope at the Canadian gay pride parade. She said:

"He lied. It came out that he lied. And he resigned.

If only we had had politicians - a Prime Minister - capable of behaving like that in the past. We wouldn't be where we are today."

You may "twist" all you like. But we know with whom the responsibility for where we are now, REALLY lies, don't we Dr Balogh?
Don't we?

[Thrasymachus]

@Pete H.
"...the Israelis wouldn't even wink. They have no reason to think Hungary is a threat and neither does Hungary have any sane reason to think Israel is a threat.
And I am only concerned about being taken seriously by people who make serious arguments in turn."
-----
Congratulations. You did indeed try to. There is a wonderful English expression: "Pull the other one".

And as for your contention that Hungary has no sane reason for thinking Israel a threat? Ask any Palestinian, and they will tell you unequivocally that, "Territorial expansion while assuring you they are doing nothing of the kind, is, err, precisely what the Israelis...
...ALWAYS DO!"

I'm not saying that I believe this. But I AM asking you to do is explain what you have to refute it; that isn't, when it boils down to it, nothing more than just your own wishful thinking and conjecture?

That isn’t just the equivalent of the Israeli Foreign Minister winking to the camera while giving a thumbs-up and saying, “Trust me.” ?

Go on, put my mind, and the mind of all those Hungarian anti-Semites to rest.

- Tell us how Peres apologised for his bombast?

- Tell me when Hungarian planes are going to do landings at Ben Gurion? (The answer to this one by the way, boys and girls, is when hell freezes over.)

- Tell me the constitutional changes Israel is making to put Hungarian minds at ease?

- Tell me how Hungarian politicians are renouncing their dual citizenship so as to not give a hint of inappropriate behaviour?

Hmmm. I'll be the one over here holding my breath.

Oh and while I'm being sarcastic, let me say that being someone who just thinks that inventing opinions for others and then defeating them, constitutes discourse. And then believes that the only avenue open when the fatuousness of your position is pointed out to you, is scream "Jew hater"...

Being taken seriously?

Is the least of your problems, pal.

[Pete H.]

"And as for your contention that Hungary has no sane reason for thinking Israel a threat? Ask any Palestinian, and they will tell you unequivocally that, "Territorial expansion while assuring you they are doing nothing of the kind, is, err, precisely what the Israelis...
...ALWAYS DO!"

I'm not saying that I believe this. But I AM asking you to do is explain what you have to refute it; that isn't, when it boils down to it, nothing more than just your own wishful thinking and conjecture?"

Funny, what I learned when studying rhetoric is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Not that they require extraordinary refutation. But, be my guest and continue to swim in your conspiratorial swamp.

[Thrasymachus]

@Pete H.
"Funny, what I learned when studying rhetoric is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Not that they require extraordinary refutation."
-----
It's interesting that you consider refuting my position to be an extraordinary endeavour, but, I'm so very very glad you chose to make this assertion at this time, and indicate the rigour with which you stick to it.

In which case, needless to say, I am greatly looking forward to your making Dr Balogh acquainted with it, and enthusiastically, in the comments to the blog post that immediately follows this one...

I mean anything else would be just rampant hypocrisy on your part.

[Karl Pfeifer]

@Thrasymachus@ has found the stone of wisdom: If there is Antisemitism in Hungary Jews are to blame for it. And in first line President Peres, who made a jocular remark, about Israeli real estate entrepreneurs who buy up Manhattan, Poland, Rumania and Hungary.
Only in Hungary Antisemites were glad to have an excuse, nobody cared in the other countries mentioned by Peres.
Heti Válasz has done some research and found out the Israelis are minor players on the Hungarian real estate market. But @Thrasymachus@ facts only disturb the antisemitic discourse and “logic”. So you’ll continue to accuse Peres, Israeli airplanes etc.
Nobody can refute an antisemitic discourse, for the antisemite is sure, the Jews have given cause. This was also the argument of Zsolt Bayer, when he wrote his famous text about the Jewish journalists who justify antisemitism (I quote from memory).
Of course one can't compare 1:1 Austria with Hungary. And I agree the history was quite different after 1945. For now a lot of Hungarians try to forget, that they did arrange themselves with the Kádár-regime and hallucinate the Kádár-regime as a rule of Jews.
I remember one MSZMP member who told a friend of mine from the democratic opposition in 1987 "one can't p... against the wind", a few years later he discovered the root cause of all Hungarian problems, "the high percentage of Jews in intellectual professions".
There is nothing new under the sun.

[Erik the Reader]

I don't think that anti-semitism has a higher percentage in Hungary then in Usa or other country. Unfortunately leftists use anti-semitism as a tool labeling anti-semites also those who are not, (e. g just because some happen not to agree with Israeli policy). There is even a joke in Hungary which sais "Anti-semites are not those who do not like Jews, but those who are not liked by Jews".
Don't take it as an insult.

Anti-semitism should have no place in Hungary or in any country. As Christians we should not forget that Jesus was Jewish.

[Erik the Reader]

What about the Israeli spy planes flying above Hungary? Should we close an eye on that? As I saw Eva did not touch this touchy subject. :D
The fact that there are always anti-semites people doest not make a whole country anti-semite.

[Vándorló]

@Karl Pfeifer: Concerning stats on the sources of capital for real-estate investment in Hungary, is this the article you were referring to 'Tévhitek a "New York-Tel-Aviv-tengely"? térfoglalásáról' http://hetivalasz.hu/itthon/tevhitek-a-new-york-tel-aviv-tengely-terfoglalasarol-25468
If you have any other sources of data on this I'd be very grateful

[Vándorló]

@Karl Pfeifer: To sort of answer my own question/request, there are an interesting series of articles by Bódis András in HétiVálasz covering property, government contracts etc... One is available in English for those that don't read Hungarian: http://hetivalasz.hu/english_business/asset-managers-25900/

I find the repeated habit of governments classifying public procurement and tender details secret for 10+ years to be a damning indictment in itself.

One only has to laugh at Bajnai's recent proposal to put on the statute book a law that would make it obligatory to disclose the contract terms for all contract over 1 billion forints; with the intention to lower this to 200 million some years hence. The 'freedom of information act' already allows people the right to this information - though government does all it can to to adhere to its own laws, typically stringing people along for 3+ years after a request.

Perhaps this is little helping the cause of social unrest and fueling unnecessary suspicion.

[Sikeres Internetes]

I have always wandered, why people became anti-semite? What are the reasons for this? Is there a serious, well founded international study, why certain people start to hate jews? (except the argument, that they are "different"?...people from China are also very different, but there is no such hatred against them here in Hungary...)

If we would know the reasons, both jews and non-jews could work out a compromise I guess... or I am too naive?

[Sikeres Internetes]

did I say something wrong???

[Karl Pfeifer]

I did not load Heti Válasz down but remember having read it at the end of 2009

There are a lot of theories about modern antisemitism. Especially interesting are books of Bela Grunberger, Klaus Holz, Moishe Postone and of course of Theodor Adorno. Postone is prof at the University of Chicago, he has written a brilliant work on holocaust and antisemitism.
I have just now translated an interview he gave to a British Website about leftwing antisemitism into German.
Holz has written a very interesting book about nationalism and antisemitism. He is also the director of a German evangelical cultural centre.
antisemitism in Europe has nothing to do with Jews living here. And you have antisemitism in Japan, where only a few hundred Jews live.
Antisemitism (Jewish World Conspiracy) is an "explanation" of modern globalised capitalism. It has really nothing to do with the 15.000 Hungarians - most of them belonging to the older generation - who are members of Jewish religious or other association. Gábor Vona f.i. has given an interview to a German NPD-Member and said that according to him there are 200.000 Jews in Hungary.
Of course this is exaggerated.
Adorno said antisemitism is the rumour about Jews.

[Eva S. Balogh]

I just found a very good article in Business Week about Hungary. It is an excellent analysis of the situation.
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/apr2010/gb2010046_078128.htm

[Ian Somerville]

There is a long history of deep seated antisemitism in Hungary. If you read Ottokar Prohaszka, Catholic bishop of Szekesfehervar until 1927, you see the seeds of the Hungarian holocaust. He referred to Hungarian Jews as "vermin", "parasytes" and "occupiers of the motherland" who must be "curbed". His writings influenced fascist politicians like Balint Homan, who pushed for Nazi style anti-Jewish laws. Today, both Prohaszka and pre-war fascist politicians enjoy enourmous respect among Christian nationalist. Orban himself describes his government as "Christian nationalists", which implies that Jews, along with other non-Christians are an alien minority.

[Julia]

I wonder the same things as "Sikeres Internete" above... Why this specific hatred of Jews? I have alwas wondered. So sad.