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« What can we expect? | Main | March for Life »

April 18, 2010

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Paul

have i ever said "just because it said so"? no - i judge on ACTIONS and EVIDENCE. you have completely ignored jobbik's conduct in the elections - and most of what i just wrote. did jobbik break the campaign spending limits? no. does jobbik maintain illegal voter databases? no. does jobbik's program (and "rhetoric") support increased anti-corruption and political transparency measures, as well as the decentralisation of powers? yes.

you honestly think jobbik will "dismantle democracy"? or are not "respecting the democracy"? with what evidence? (reporters referring to jobbik as "facist" is not evidence. it is bias - the enemy of free debate.) jobbik have never said any words to this effect and never will.

what most people "see in jobbik" is the disgusting picture the media paints - until they bother to acquaint themselves personally with the party and sees the media lies for what they are.

"As you are surely a Jobbik supporter, you can't see things clearly enough." are you trying to imply that anyone who supports jobbik is too dumb to be critical of them? would you make this statement about an mszp or lmp supporter? i was not born a jobbik supporter. i had never heard of the party until recently when newspapers started calling them "facists". at which point i decided to investigate these claims for myself, being personally opposed to corruption and dictatorship in any form. what i found in jobbik was the total opposite of what is reported - i realised i had merely been as misled by the media as you are now.

"You can tell that you are democratic as much as you like, but people wont believe you. Because the leaders of Jobbik publicly told things that a democratic leader wouldn't ever say." i noticed (as usual) you have no evidence to support this, nor any of your other spurious (ridiculous, and irrelevant) historical comparisons. note that mr gyurcsany set the bar rather low for "democratic leaders" with his famed speech. i am yet to hear vona gabor say such things. nor has vona said anything like "we are buying up hungary" (or anywhere else) which according to the media was entirely fine for mr peres to say as a "democratic leader". is the chinese communist party a "democratic party"? i haven't heard of any US dipolmatic boycotts against them this year...

"the observable intention matters too." the "observable intention" is spelled out quite clearly in their election program - which you won't have read im sure. find out what jobbik ACTUALLY stand for here: (if you can't read hungarian)

http://jobbik.com/temp/Jobbik-RADICALCHANGE2010.pdf

if you are looking for a racist, facist, undemocratic party, you will be sadly disappointed to find nothing of the sort in jobbik. the shameful lies directed (solely) against this party should disgust any true democract who favours honesty and debate over smears and boycotts (like i do).

but what do evidence and truth matter when we are fighting "nazis", right steve? the media is perfectly unbiased and without any agenda at all, right steve? anyone who isn't a liberal is "undemocratic", right steve?

Pete H.

@Paul,
Do you think Jobbik's website is a place to get unbiased information about the party? You can put lipstick on pig, it is still a pig.

Rather disturbing article on what passes for democratic ideals at Jobbik rallies: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,687921,00.html

Paul

what i mean is that jobbik's website is the only place to get unbiased information on what the party's program actually is. i recommend you read what they actually stand for before you scream "nazi" and "facist".

ah yes the spiegel. i was wondering when jobbik would start featuring in their weekly "nazis under the bed" story.

i assure you pete that i am well informed on what the western media says about jobbik. unlike you however, i am also personally well informed as to what the members of jobbik are really like (in REAL LIFE). the difference is enormous. when articles in a german mazagine contradict what i have seen with my own eyes, i can't help but question who are the real pigs here.

i had already read that article. if you can't see its strong bias and its attempts to draw parallels between unrelated political movements almost a century apart, you are blind.

"Two young men raise their right arms in a Nazi salute and a shout goes up, first tentatively, then louder: "To the concentration camp, to the concentration camp.""
it is obviously implied that these "young man" are - and could only possibly be - members of jobbik. therefore random nazis = (must equal) = jobbik. that is not professional journalism - that is gutter smearing and obvious bias.

"red and white striped, much like the armbands worn by members of Hungary's fascist Arrow Cross Party during World War II."

"red and white striped" and also just like the nation's coat of arms! therefore all hungarians must be facists!? as if the arrow cross party invented the arpad stripes. this is, of course, not mentioned in an article designed for fear-mongering, rather than giving accurate information.

"One speaker claims that Israeli investors and their local agents are in the process of buying up the country with its 10 million inhabitants."

you might also note that this is what Shimon Peres, president of israel said himself. this is not mentioned in the article either. is there any other way of interpreting the sentence "we are buying up hungary"? does repeating what the israeli president said, in context, make one an instant nazi? this article is misleading in the extreme.

there are numerous other deliberately misleading omissions made in this article. even a liberal like yourself should be able to recognise a one-sided piece of clear propaganda like this.

i always love it how the cause of hungarians' anger is supposedly that "It was only through a €20 billion ($27 billion) loan from the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and the EU that Hungary was able to avert national bankruptcy." no mention of why hungary needed this loan in the first place. another deliberate omission.

apparently wearing rooster feathers in one's hat also makes one an instant nazi, preparing to deport jews. i ask again - is this an unbiased article?

pete if this is how you get your information on jobbik, i can understand why you would think they are nazis. do you really believe everything you see on tv? use your brain for a second, and think why it is that the media and the corrupt hungarian left hate jobbik so viciously. you might also figure out why they have such strong support in the "Real" hungary, far from media propaganda.

Paul

find out what jobbik really thinks of facists:

http://www.jobbik.com/jobbik-announcements/3168.html

jobbik describes the arrow cross as "a tyrannical four month long government in Hungary complicit in the holocaust."

jobbik describes anti-gypsy violence as "terrible crimes"

jobbik explains (about gypsies) that "the socio-cultural economic circumstances of such people, that has led to the predominant commission of certain types of crimes; and it has nothing at all to do with their ethnic origin."

none of this sounds like the rhetoric of racist, violent, arrow-cross facists to me at all. read the jobbik's article before posting another "but the media told me jobbik are nazis" story, please.

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