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« Trianon: A different view | Main | The die is cast »

May 25, 2010

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Comments

leeflang

Well, if I remember well, that is actually a reason for Orbán to be in favour of the EU,

Steve

"Yet the Hungarian right for nationalistic reasons is against a closer union and insists on a political entity where the individual nation states have the upper hand over the central power of Brussels"

This isn't true at all. Fidesz is more in favour of EU than the socialists were. Gyurcsány had consistently made steps in spite of the unified EU policies, while Fidesz was always criticizing those divergent steps, and is working closely with the other EPP members.

Giving MORE rights to citizens of other EU member states is in EU spirit. Reducing rights is against EU spirit.

Fidesz is consistent in this view, so if Slovakia would want to give more rights to Slovaks living in Hungary, that would be welcomed and not frowned upon.

The new citizenship law will have minimal meaning for Slovakian and Romanian citizens of Hungarian ethnicity. They already have all the rights they would get with Hungarian citizenship. The law is meant for Hungarians living in Serbia and Ukraine, since those countries are not members of EU.

Eva S. Balogh

Steve: ""Yet the Hungarian right for nationalistic reasons is against a closer union and insists on a political entity where the individual nation states have the upper hand over the central power of Brussels" This isn't true at all. Fidesz is more in favour of EU than the socialists were."

You must be dreaming. Not a word of what you say is true.

Sandor

Eva: "The "solution" to Trianon lies in a United Europe, but the Hungarian right refuses to support such a development. Instead it wants to create a "nation state of fifteen million Hungarians" across borders. I will never understand their logic."

Yes, you can and will appreciate the purpose behind all this, if you consider that the nationalistic fervour is one of the basic tenets and vote getting device of the Right. Having no actual policy solutions to offer, they have to resort to this old and tried device to attract the segment of the electorate that has no demands other than recognition on any ground. Being nationalistically and culturally "superior" will do it for them.
This is a cheap and easy way to the hearts, but not to the brains of these simple souls. Hungarians were always suckers for this kind of propaganda. Since the Right has no other goal than the acquisition of power, they mutually fool each other into a short term deal: "we boost you as the greater nation and you boost us as your government." It works in the short term and in the long term "you will be dead, we on the other hand shall figure something out for our own survival."

I would also like to put in, again, for the term of "Jewish Laws" as an euphemism. It sounds a bit nicer than it actually was.
I know that the harsh direct translation is a bit offensive to the politically correct ear, but that is how it should be. Let it be offensive! Let it be as offensive as it actually is and was and be called in its raw brutality " Jew Laws."

Eva S. Balogh

Sandor: "Let it be as offensive as it actually is and was and be called in its raw brutality " Jew Laws.""

Not so simple. "Zsidó" is both a noun and an adjective and in this case it is clear that the word is used as an adjective.

Sandor

Not so simple says I with relish.

If it were used as an adjective, it would mean laws made by Jews, or made for Jews, or at least laws with some Jewish characteristics. In any case it would signify the nature of those laws.
As it is, the Jew Laws had no adjective, they were a combined noun to signify laws who's object were the Jews collectively. Therefore, the two words together represent a distinct noun. You could not use any adjective in the place of "Jews" and have a similar meaning, the "adjective" couldn't be substituted by an other adjective, therefore it cannot be an adjective.
Let me offer an analogy. I chose the morbid analogy of "rough trade." OK, I admit this is morbid enough. But in any other case "rough" would be an adjective perhaps, however, in the specific meaning that "rough trade" stands for these two words represent, and only together, one specific idea that cannot be expressed in any other way. These two words are, together, a single noun.
Although linguistics, particularly English, is a field I approach with the greatest caution and only in case of an emergency am I willing to be lured into, but in this case I believe the emergency is present and my claim is quite confident.

Eva S. Balogh

Sorry, Sandor, but you're wrong. In fact, I was wrong too. I looked it up in the dictionary and the word "zsidó" can be used only as an adjective. There might be constructions in which it looks as if it were a noun but even then it is an adjective except the noun that should follow like "ember/person" or "vallás/religion" is missing. In constructions like "János zsidó" or "Károly nem zsidó." In English the situation is different because you can say that "János is a Jew" or "János is Jewish." You can't do that in Hungarian.

Sandor

Sorry, Sandor, but you're wrong. In fact, I was wrong too. I looked it up in the dictionary and the word "zsidó" can be used only as an adjective."

All right, I wonder what dictionary that may have been. Because this is surely just hogwash and poppycock.
If "Jew" could only be adjective, you would not be able to say things like "the Jew of Venice" "the Jew" the "rich Jew," or "dirty Jew" etc. None of these are adjectives. Are they? Look at "Jew baiting!" Are you understanding some kind of baiting from it that under different circumstances could be smooth baiting or wild baiting, low baiting or high baiting? Of course not! Clearly it is one verb accusative in relation to a noun and that noun is the Jew.
If you have used a Hungarian dictionary, then again the same apply, however it is a bit more subtle. Just consider for example "Jew beating." (zsidoveres) You see, just by being forced to join the two into one word, as the rules dictate, the noun is revealed automatically, you don't even need to go into analysis.
It is my respectful contention that the word Jew is hardly ever an adjective and Jewish is only when it is used to distinguish a noun from others of similar meaning. Like: Italian cuisine, Jewish cuisine; etc.

Eva S. Balogh

Sandor: "All right, I wonder what dictionary that may have been. Because this is surely just hogwash and poppycock."

I see that I cannot change your mind even if that dictionary is the official Hungarian dictionary (Magyar Értelmező Szótár). The "zsidó törvény" simply means "law concerning the Jewish people."

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