Dual citizenship and Slovakia

The thorny problem of dual citizenship for Hungarians living in the neighboring countries has cropped up again although its emergence didn't come as a surprise. Ever since the failed referendum at the end of 2004 Fidesz has made it clear that this issue was an important one for them. Even before the elections, some time in November or December of 2009, Fidesz, then still in opposition, brought up the issue. But the government party wanted to have safeguards that the new citizens, perhaps as many as a million adults, would not be able to vote in Hungarian elections. The Fidesz parliamentary members who came up with the legislative proposal for dual citizenship, seeing that MSZP was not easily moved on the subject, dropped the idea. To tell the truth, I have no idea why they even proposed this legislation only a few months before the elections. They must have realized that Fidesz would do well in the coming elections and afterwards could do whatever it wanted to. At least as far as Hungarian internal politics are concerned. The reaction of the world and the neighbors is something else. But Fidesz often disregards such considerations. They want a strong Hungary that doesn't make what they consider unnecessary compromises. Not like the socialists who in their eyes wanted a small and weak country that would always have to give in. Well, we will see.

Before I tackle the topic of dual citizenship and Slovakia I would like to say a few words about the new-old foreign minister, János Martonyi. It is truly amazing how a man's reputation can be burnished in the course of eight years. Martonyi was not a good foreign minister. Or rather, we don't know what kind of foreign minister he would have been had he been allowed to conduct the country's foreign policy. But he was a puppet; it doesn't matter how military looking his moustache is. I think I mentioned earlier that for a long time I kept an HVG cover from those days. It depicted Martonyi in a tennis outfit, racket in hand, in front of a net. On the other side was Viktor Orbán in a soccer uniform with socks in the national colors kicking a soccer ball over the net for Martonyi to catch with his racket. Well, this was a very apt depiction of the situation. Unfortunately, Orbán has no talent for diplomacy. As a result Hungary's relations with her neighbors as well as with the United States, Europe, and Russia hit rock bottom between 1998 and 2002.

Analysts seem to have forgotten about Martonyi's ineffectual tenure as foreign minister, and we have been hearing nothing else for weeks but what a wonderful and experienced man Hungary will have as its foreign minister. I guess if you compare him with the rest of his colleagues perhaps he stands out, but that's not saying much.

The verbal confusion over the nature of this dual citizenship is staggering. Important Fidesz politicians say different things about eligibility, voting rights, and general rights and privileges. But that's not the path I'm going down right now. Instead I will look at the international complications which, I fear, will not be easy to overcome.

The Romanian government and media have been quiet on the subject but not so Slovakia. Therefore I wasn't terribly surprised to hear that Martonyi's first trip was to Bratislava, even before he officially became foreign minister. Therefore it was of course not an official visit. Just a working lunch that took place today. In advance of the trip one could hear all sorts of things in the media. According to the Hungarian news agency, MTI, the Slovak dailies were optimistic about the outcome of the visit. MTI mentioned the Slovak paper Pravda that considered the visit "an important gesture." Tomás Koziak, a political scientist, was also hopeful that as a result of the visit the tense relationship between the two countries would change for the better. I wasn't that optimistic.

An interesting side note is that Martonyi, once in Bratislava, also paid a visit to the headquarters of MKP (Magyar Koalició Pártja) that is close to Fidesz and a fierce opponent of the current Slovak government. However, he didn't visit the other, more moderate Hungarian party, Híd/Most. Pál Csáky, the chairman of MKP, said something to the effect that the legislative proposal concerning dual citizenship might change in light of the conversation between Martonyi and Miroslav Lajcák, the Slovak foreign minister, but "these changes will not be substantial." In brief, it really doesn't matter what Lajcák says to Martonyi, the Hungarian elephant will charge ahead.

The Slovak papers were not alone in being optimistic. Even Népszava, not exactly a friend of Fidesz, was hopeful that "Martonyi is ready to build good relations between the two countries." It seems that Népszava was in too much of a hurry. Martonyi arrived in Bratislava this morning and didn't exactly conquer. Today's Népszabadság brought the bad news: the talks didn't go very well. The title of the report from Bratislava carried the following title: "Martonyi didn't arrive in Bratislava with friendly gestures." The two men didn't see eye to eye on the two crucial questions: the Slovak language law and dual citizenship. The picture of the two foreign ministers accompanying the article tells a lot. The Slovak foreign minister announced that Bratislava can't consider it a friendly move that Hungary wants to introduce dual citizenship without consulting the governments concerned. Moreover, from what he knows about its details, he has legal objections as well. If the Hungarian Parliament votes on this issue, Slovakia will turn to the Organization of European Security and Cooperation in addition to the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe.

If I had to predict, I'm afraid that the Fidesz government will not be deterred. Martonyi will crumble before Viktor Orbán, Zsolt Semjén, and Zsolt Németh, the possible future undersecretary of foreign affairs, when it comes to the introduction of dual citizenship. Consequently, the relations between Hungary and Slovakia will worsen. And I suspect this is just the beginning. Perhaps I'm too pessimistic but past experiences lead me to believe that Orbán and his team haven't learned a thing about diplomacy in the last eight years. I wish I were wrong.

Comments

[Gellért]

I don't believe it can exist: citizenship without voting rights. Every Hungarian living abroad is entitled to vote through the systems of Hungarian embassies abroad. A Hungarian that aquires a Hungarian citizenship in the next years can simply claim the right to vote. Maybe he/she has to go all the way up, but in the end his/her claim will be justified by the European Court of Human Rights on the basis that Hungarian state is not allowed to discriminate between Hungarian citizens on the basis of how that citizenship was aquired.

[kincs]

Slovakia recalled its ambassador on Wednesday night over the dual citizenship plan.
The forint is suffering more than other East European currencies because of Fidesz words and actions, (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-11/hungarian-forint-may-underperform-on-politics-4cast-says.html) and the next news director at MTV is a theology graduate who works for lancidrádió, the station that Tamás Fellegi sold a few days before he was named as a cabinet minister.
All this and Fidesz isn't even in power yet. Get ready for four years (or twenty?) of boorishness.

[Hank]

If Mártonyi would have been e real diplomat, he and Fidesz would have waited with their dual citizenship initiatives till after June 12, the elections in Slovakia. Now it is hard to distinguish what are real objections and what are internal political manouvres.

The Romanians, of course, have a problem complaining as they are handing out dual citizenship en masse to Romanians in Moldova.

[pat]

Kincs, where do you get your foolish info about forint's reason for suffering and why do you post a dead link?

http://portfolio.hu/en/cikkek.tdp?k=3&i=20105
Forint is moving along with the rest of EU currencies but is more fragile for ONE obvious reason and that is the debts that communists left here.

Eva Balogh loves to praise communists (hypocritically,from the comfort of her western residence just like the rest of "intelligentsia" never from cuba or n. korea ) and loves to hate orban that is given.

As a Slovak citizen with Hungarian roots, I am 100% sure most Hungarians will embrace this idea (and old borders) as the future of Slovakia is doomed.

Slovakia has NO unity (east vs. west / roma vs. slovaks / huns vs slovaks)
and within 20 years the Roma majority (not employable, without basic skills to do anything, degenerated from incests)
will take over and that would be the end of Slovakia.

E. Balogh writes > it doesn't matter how military looking his moustache is....

Well, obviously it does to her, if she is mentioning it. Did she experience some bad trauma with 'staches before ???

Hank, i disagree, to bring it out now shows Hungarians in Slovakia which way to vote if they want to "seal the deal".

E. Balogh writes >

Unfortunately, Orbán has no talent for diplomacy.
As a result Hungary's relations with her neighbors as well as with the United States, Europe, and Russia hit rock bottom between 1998 and 2002.

Does she have a concrete examples, that confirm her theory or is she just criticizing every move Orban takes without reason? As I remember those years, relations where excellent.

Will she ever criticize the real criminals, the communists ??? Will she ever call for once and for all punishment for communists after the destruction they have left ???

No, she praises them and that just shows you where she stands...

[Erik the Reader]

What a double standard! Slovakia has already a citizenship law for those of slovak ethnicity born in foreign countries.
It's Hungary's right to do the same for the Hungarians living in the neighbouring countries or elsewhere.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Gellert""I don't believe it can exist: citizenship without voting rights. Every Hungarian living abroad is entitled to vote through the systems of Hungarian embassies abroad."

But only if they have a permanent address in Hungary.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pat: "Eva Balogh loves to praise communists (hypocritically,from the comfort of her western residence just like the rest of "intelligentsia" never from cuba or n. korea"

Such stupidies raise my blood pressure. There are no communists in Hungary with the exception of a few people in the Workers' Party and Moldova who doesn't have the foggiest idea about individual freedom. All that talk about communist dictatorship is rubbish.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Erik the Reader: "What a double standard! Slovakia has already a citizenship law for those of slovak ethnicity born in foreign countries. It's Hungary's right to do the same for the Hungarians living in the neighbouring countries or elsewhere."

How many Slovaks live in Hungary for example? Believe me that if half a million Slovaks lived in Hungary, Hungary would complain.

[Erik the Reader]

Giving Hungarian citizenship to the Hungarians of the Upper lands will not result any bad thing for Slovakia.

As for the half of million of Hungarians, Slovaks should have thinked wiser 90 years ago when they incorporated the Hungarian minority which is in majority in southern parts of Slovakia.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Erik the Reader: "Giving Hungarian citizenship to the Hungarians of the Upper lands will not result any bad thing for Slovakia. As for the half of million of Hungarians, Slovaks should have thinked wiser 90 years ago when they incorporated the Hungarian minority which is in majority in southern parts of Slovakia."

(1) Are you surprised that the Slovaks are sensitive on this issue when you and many other people in Hungary call Slovakia "Felvidék" (Uplands)? I'm not.

(2) If I were you I wouldn't want to conduct a historical discussion with me about what the Slovaks wanted and what they didn't in 1918-19. My knowledge of the subject is so much greater than most people's that you simply can't win this one.

The Slovaks didn't demand the current borders. The Czechs did who were actually in charge of Czechoslovak foreign policy in those days. Milan Hodza, a Slovak politician, in fact agreed with the Károlyi government on a demarcation line that was running pretty well along ethnic lines. Benes disavowed the agreement.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pat: "but your ultimate agenda is stealing, corrupting, imprisoning and sucking the blood of hungary"

You are no longer welcome as a commentator on this blog. Personal attacks on anyone are not tolerated. This comment of yours is deleted and so will be all others with similar messages

[pat]

Eva:

If I were you I wouldn't want to conduct a historical discussion with me about what the Slovaks wanted and what they didn't in 1918-19. My knowledge of the subject is so much greater than most people's that you simply can't win this one.

The Slovaks didn't demand the current borders. The Czechs did who were actually in charge of Czechoslovak foreign policy in those days. Milan Hodza, a Slovak politician, in fact agreed with the Károlyi government on a demarcation line that was running pretty well along ethnic lines. Benes disavowed the agreement.

YOUR KNOWLEDGE means nothing to the current conditions and the faith of nations. The history always was and always will be dictated by power, ethnic backgrounds and unity. Slovakia is a non-country that stands very divided, without own history, without aristocracy, just a bunch of peasants (with Fico on top) with Slovak in different accents. They will stand somewhat unified today but not "tomorrow" and ROMA demographics will destroy that unity in 15-20 years for sure.
Their piling debts, economy based on manufacturing that can be moved anywhere, young people leaving for west what does that translate to ???

[Peter]

Dear Eva I don't understand you quite well. What did you expect after Fico not considering any of hungarian fears of language legalisation. Now Slovakia ar at rage, and want to turn to EBES, however they turned them down on their requests entirely before. You can't expect Hungary always sullenly accepting Slovakian argues.

Hungarians call south Slovakia Felvidék, because it is the Hungarian name for that area. Taking that as an objection is as stupid as it would be to object calling Jerusalem Holy land.

I think hungarian nationilies should have the opportunity to get hungarian citizenship. No more, no less. They have been hungarian citizens, and their citizenship were taken away forcedly, which is by no means acceptable.

[Peter]

some more thing Eva.

How can the fact that there is a huge minority in Slovakia can be an argument against giving them citizenship?

And why do you force the view that dual citizenship causes conflict of loyalty, whereas in most well developed countries it does not, or they at least don't show this symptom?

Why can't you accept that giving back citizenship (and definitely not territorries) would cause acceptance and more loyalty, because of that gesture.

Why does Slovakia give dual citizenship whereas Fico can't accept it when it is about Hungarians?

Why do you claim that you know more than any of us about Slovakia 18-19, when you don't say anything. That is no argument to me. It's a pose.

[pat]

Eva wrote :

Pat: "but your ultimate agenda is stealing, corrupting, imprisoning and sucking the blood of hungary"

You are no longer welcome as a commentator on this blog. Personal attacks on anyone are not tolerated. This comment of yours is deleted and so will be all others with similar messages

NICE !!!! deleting whole post and just showing a part where I wrote it to communists of Hungary WITHOUT being able to argument back and falsely considering it a "personal attack" (when its based on evidence) just shows me who I am dealing with here

CENSOR + DELETE and hates fact based critic of communism = a communist

thanks, i wanted to share my opinion but communism doesnt like free speech just "selected pro-red nice speech"

what an agenda and after USA gave you so much.....

[kincs]

Pat, I'm sorry the link didn't work. Maybe this one will:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aaGndc3muPs8

It's from a Bloomberg report. I don't suppose it will penetrate the webs of myth and fantasy that keep objective reality at bay for you, but for those interested, here are the main points:

"May 11 (Bloomberg) -- Hungary’s forint will probably underperform other emerging-European currencies because of a clash between the next government and the central bank and plans to widen the budget deficit, 4Cast Ltd. said.

"The incoming cabinet’s repeated calls for the central bank leadership to quit, for a wider budget deficit this year and for a plan to convert some foreign-currency mortgages to forint may all weaken the country’s currency, Gabor Ambrus, a Sofia-based 4Cast analyst, said in a note to clients.

“Markets have so far been overwhelmed by the external pressure back and forth, but should these abate and local factors carry market weight again, we expect the forint’s underperformance to be more pronounced,” Ambrus said."

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pat: "NICE !!!! deleting whole post and just showing a part where I wrote it to communists of Hungary WITHOUT being able to argument back and falsely considering it a "personal attack" (when its based on evidence)"

My first suggestion is that you work on your English. What you wrote was a personal attack against me as someone who is sucking the blood of Hungary.

If you continue discussion in this manner I will bar you forever contributing to this blog.

[John T]

So, at a time when Hungary is one of the basket cases of the EU and needs all the stability and friends it can get, Fidesz decides to embark on a policy that will wind up its neighbours and probably unleash forces that the politicans won't be able to control. No matter how just the cause, the timing is abysmal. And I hate to say it to those who support this move - when the S*** hits the fan, nobody will be running to support Hungary because frankly, no country West of Sopron is remotely interested in the issue of the Hungarian minority. And unfortunately, that is a fact that people might want to stop and consider. But I doubt the key players will - Central Europe has experienced so much pain and suffering over the years, so they will only be continuing the trend.

[Öcsi]

@John

It's easier to be a "victim" than an engaged citizen. Hungarians elevate their victim status to mythical heights. And they're surprised that nobody gives a damn.

[pat]

Eva wrote:

My first suggestion is that you work on your English. What you wrote was a personal attack against me as someone who is sucking the blood of Hungary.

I NEVER suggested anything against you personally. The above comment was meant at the communists still rolling around and plundering Hungary. It's a pity, that you deleted my post because it would show it. This has nothing to do with my English skills.

Eva, maybe you should write an essay about what kind of Hungary do you wish for, so your readers can better understand what values do you stand for. But either way I get the idea.

John T

yes Hungary is in trouble financially thanks to the socialist policies and thanks to plundering by politicians and their friends but so is the whole EU and USA (almost every country with high deficit and huge debts and that is not fault of Hungary.)

The way I see it, is that Slovakia has no future (see my reasoning in above posts), ethnic Hungarians always felt closer to Hungary than to Slovakia and its just an opportunity, a long dream and logical assessment of situation.

Slovakia WILL fall apart in next decades whether Hungarians ask for dual citizenship or not and that's all...

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pat: "I NEVER suggested anything against you personally. The above comment was meant at the communists still rolling around and plundering Hungary. It's a pity, that you deleted my post because it would show it.

Well, your note is deleted in Hungarian Spectrum but I am "lucky" enough to have it in the original. This is what you wrote:

"You can call yourself "progressive/socialist/left wing" but your ultimate agenda is stealing, corrupting, imprisoning and sucking the blood of hungary But then again you wouldnt call Obama a Marxist, a baby H. Chavez would you ?"

If that is not a personal attack I don't know what it is.

[John T]

Pat - "yes Hungary is in trouble financially thanks to the socialist policies and thanks to plundering by politicians and their friends but so is the whole EU and USA (almost every country with high deficit and huge debts and that is not fault of Hungary."

Yes indeed, Hungary any most other countries are in a mess. But is it time to stir up peoples anger still further. As I said, it will probably unleash forces that the politicans cannot control. If Slovakia does disintegrate, then surely it is easier for ethic Hungarians to bide their time and wait for the collapse.

[andras]

I believe that giving dual citizenship to hungarians living in Slovakia reprezents no threat to this country.I can't understand why the slovak government is reacting with such an anger against this.Why don't they give arguments regarding their position, all their are doing now is threatening that there will be this and that if Budapest adopts this law.

[John T]

Andras - I don't see it as a threat either if the issue is viewed rationally (I have dual nationality myself). But the problem is, rational thought is usually in sort supply in the region and as a consequence, events more often than not spin out of control.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Pat's comments from here on will be deleted.

[pgyzs]

Dear Eva,

1.Well, let's not mix things up.

I agree it was not wise to bring this issue forth before the Slovakian election, that is a fact. On the other hand, this Slovakian goverment gained much of its support by trying to wipe the floor with the Hungarians as many times as possible. I have no idea how can a country base its national identity against another one. There has to be a line.

It is not Hungary, where a president of a goverment party can constantly make military threats and it is no excuse that his an alcoholic/mentally ill, etc...

2. On the issue:

- Fico did not even wait to see the particular content of the bill, he does not even know what the hell he is defending against. (Well, in fact he knows, seeming weak in the nationalist public perception)

- Slovakia has no problem of dual citizenship with any other country. Just type "Dual citizenship, Slovakia" to Google and you'll see. Slovakia offers citizenship to anyone with Slovak ancestors, and yes there is a major Slovakian minority in Moravia (perhaps not as big as Hun's in SK, but it is the principle that counts). This points out that the main motive behind this hysteria is plainly exploiting the historically generated but artificially maintained fear from the Hungarians in order to gain some surplus votes. Also this makes quite certain that turning to OESC is nothing but an entertaining bluff.

- It is not just Romania, no other country involved had any objections, of course, in none of them is it election time nor is there nationalistic goverment.

- Can you really point out any real threat to Slovakia's national security? I tried hard but couldn't come up with any. On the other hand it is a very important but purely emotional (and border-independent) issue for the Hungarian nation. Perhaps you do not value these motives high, but if you were in the Felvidék (Yes, in Hungarian language, this is the name of the region, like Leipzig is Lipcse, Paris is Párizs and USA is Egyesült Államok and I could cite many examples from other language dependent geographical names) or in Transylvania you might have a hint what I'm talking about. This is a live and let live issue and from a modern, democratic/liberal point of view it should not be an issue amongst two nations sharing a lot of common interests otherwise. Perhaps I'm too much of an idealist.

Conclusion: My best guess is that Fico is fed up with the constant inconvenience Slota means to him and was happy to see the SNS weakening considerably. Now if he doesn't want his own voters to climb (back) to Slota, he himself has to offer them the "Hungarian ass-kicking" show. This is why I am ballistic why Fidesz couldn't wait one month even though I strongly support the idea itself (but with no voting right without permanent address in Hungary)

[pgyzs]

P.S.

"As a result Hungary's relations with her neighbors as well as with the United States, Europe, and Russia hit rock bottom between 1998 and 2002."

That is just not entirely true, at least not with Slovakia. Slovak-Hungarian relations have never been as smooth as in the Dzurinda-Orban era and yes, I remember the racket on the status bill and still. Perhaps this was not for Orbán but because Dzurinda was much much more intelligent and "european" than Fico. On the other hand I firmly believe that achieving peace by surrendering is just the peace of the cemetery. Sometimes you have to draw a line and make a stand. Dual citizenship is this line.

[Eva S. Balogh]

pgyzs: "Perhaps you do not value these motives high, but if you were in the Felvidék (Yes, in Hungarian language, this is the name of the region, like Leipzig is Lipcse, Paris is Párizs and USA is Egyesült Államok and I could cite many examples from other language dependent geographical names) or in Transylvania you might have a hint what I'm talking about."

Oh, I know what you're taking about. Except your examples have nothing to do with Felvidék versus Slovakia. Uplands is only uplands if it is part of Hungary. Not exactly the same as Leipzig and Lipcse, or Wien-Vienna-Bécs.

[Eva S. Balogh]

pgyzs: "On the other hand I firmly believe that achieving peace by surrendering is just the peace of the cemetery. Sometimes you have to draw a line"

Just draw the line and you will see the result. It won't be pretty.

[pgyzs]

Life is not always pretty. But even in personal life if you constantly let other people walk over you in the name of avoiding conflicts, you'll soon become invisible and loose both others respect and your self-esteem.

Don't get me wrong, I hate debating, and I hate what is going on and I emphasize again that we agree on the diplomatic skills of Orbán (so far), but at least this act symbolises that we are still here.

[pgyzs]

"Uplands is only uplands if it is part of Hungary."

It is not a part of Hungary, but it is always clear what we are talking about. Previously I thought that it only refers to the region of Slovakia where Hungarians live, but according to Wikipedia Felvidék and Slovakia and Felvidék are synonims (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felvidék). Well, interesting, but I still think that in the public perception, the word today refers to the area inhabited by Hungarians. I don't even see this word anything else but a name (and that is what I don't use Uplands in English context, only Hungarians would know what I'm talking about).

[Eva S. Balogh]

pgyzs: "I don't even see this word anything else but a name (and that is what I don't use Uplands in English context, only Hungarians would know what I'm talking about)."

Unfortunately, it is more than a name. Someone who refuses to call the territory Slovakia which is a country where Slovaks are in majority and insists on calling it "Felvidék" (Highlands, Uplands, Upper Hungary--these are the English equivalents) is simply telling the world that he/she doesn't recognize that this territory is no longer part of Hungary.

Now, try to imagine yourself being a Slovak who hears Hungarians talk about the Uplands, Highlands, Upper Hungary, take your pick. Yes, I know, Hungarians are very often are unable to put themselves into other nations' shoes. If they could they would have more empathy for other people. Not only Hungarians have grievances. Hungarians are very often insensitive to the feelings of others. I just read somewhere that in one of the predominantly Hungarian cities somewhere close to the border the city fathers are erecting a Trianon memorial! Now, from your narrowly Hungarian point of view you might say "what's wrong with it?" But for Pete's sake, try to imagine if that some Austrians decided to erect a statue commemorating the victory over the Hungarian forces in 1849 on Hungarian territory! It would be unimaginable. And yet this is what some Hungarians of Slovakia are doing. Or, in another Slovak city, the local city council erected a statue of St. Stephen while they refused to allow a statue of Cyril and Method stand in a public place. This kind of behavior is irritating to the Slovaks and I can't blame them.

As for your last sentence: "only Hungarians would know what I'm talking about" simply is no answer. Especially not in this global world. It is not enough that Hungarians understand something. Maybe Hungarians not only understand but applaud that they elected a prime minister who wants to flex his muscles but the world will not understand why Hungary is upsetting the relative peace among nations in the region. No, they will not understand.

And finally, in these very difficult economic times, the least of our problem is dual citizenship that is really totally useless since there are no borders between the two countries and both countries belong to the European Union. If Orbán insists on dual citizenship because he thinks that eventually he can also grant these "ausländer"-s voting rights he is risking Hungary's reputation in the world for some narrow political gain.

[pgyzs]

I do recognize that Slovakia is no longer part of Hungary, but I use the word as a geographical name. When I lived in the Netherlands and I had a Slovakian friend I always used Slovakia. Guess what, I called the capital city Bratislava in English. Names should not be a great matter "in this global word". Neither can they be an obstacle in a way of friendship. Even between nations.

" But for Pete's sake, try to imagine if that some Austrians decided to erect a statue commemorating the victory over the Hungarian forces in 1849 on Hungarian territory!"

Do you remember when Basescu celebrated Trianon in Budapest together with Hungarian goverment officials? Were you angry about that? And that was an official Romanian delegation.

"Or, in another Slovak city, the local city council erected a statue of St. Stephen while they refused to allow a statue of Cyril and Method stand in a public place. This kind of behavior is irritating to the Slovaks and I can't blame them."

You call it a Slovak city, however, the vast ethnic majority in that city is Hungarian. A Cyrill&Method statue would be contrived and inappropriate there, and it would just demonstrate, it's ours, it's ours it still our's, which is a minority complex.

I realize that as a historian you might now much more (so you don't have to state that again), but according to what I read this is just the way Hungary treated its minorities before Trianon. (And the literature I can refer here is an English historian writing an excellent book about Hungarian history, I'll check the name if you would like to know who he is.)

I think you're point is biased and you are much more forgiving with the Slovaks. I want to be careful, since I do not want you to think I am one of the "you're a traitor" people. After all, you spend a lot of time writing about Hungary here, and unlike other bloggers you actually read the comments and answer to them (and be honest, not many non-hungarians read these pages). I don't know what formed your perception to be hypercritical about our country and not so strict with our neighbours, but I hope it's something like she's my child, let their parents be strict with other countries.

I realize that everyone has grievances and I respect that. Therefore I realize that Slovaks has the right to grieve e.g. the second Vienna decision (altough there is not much to grieve now). But you also have to realize that Trianon will always be a grievance of Hungary. Especially the Hungarians of Slovakia! And they have the right to grieve as well.

They are acting as if there would still be a real territorial threat against them (they say it out loud sometimes).

[pgyzs]

On the issue:

Now we know the content of the bill. Hungarian citizenship could be obtained based on Hungarian ancestry. There would be no collective "handing out", only individual appliances.

Do you know what it resembles?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_nationality_law

Morally: After the 2004 voting, it is anything but unimportant to strengthen the moral ties between Hungarians living anywhere. Also I have a personal interpretation, which you might like. This is the final act in our grievance of Trianon. Hungary (at least most of) accepted, that there is no room for and no meaning in territorial claims, so this far we wish to go. And finally we could close that chapter. If Slovaks could understand this then even Slota could sleep better instead of fantasizing about our ugly-furry horses on which we came to the Carpatian basin.

[joejosephsimon]

Martonyi will be at least as good a foreign minister as Göncz Kinga was. She was very ineffectual and very unpopular.
Eva Balogh is far off on this issue of dual
citizenship. It is largely an emotional matter for Hungarians living in Felvidék and Erdély. Slovakia would be upset no matter what Hungary did or didnot do. Finally, the mother country is doing something to recognize these fellow Hungarians. Serbia and Romania are doing the same to their bretherns in Kosovo and Moldavia. Remember, there are no more borders in the European Union.
J. Simon, Diósgyőr

[Eva S. Balogh]

pgyzs: "You call it a Slovak city, however, the vast ethnic majority in that city is Hungarian. A Cyrill&Method statue would be contrived and inappropriate there"

Yes, I call it a Slovak city because it is situated in Slovakia. Better get over it. Whether it was just or not is irrelevant. It might be largely inhabited by Hungarians (about 80%) but whether you like or not it is part of Slovakia today.

As for Cyril and Method, according to Slovak tradition, it was at this point that the two missionaries crossed the Danube in 862, that is about thirty years before the Hungarians arrived in the Carpathian Basin. Moreover, one must keep in mind that whole area, both banks of the Danube were inhabited by Slav-speaking people at this point. Enough to look at some of the geographic names on the Hungarian side: Veszprém, Visegrád and many others.

[pgyzs]

So why not build some Avar statue too they lived here as well for some time... That is not the point, this is not a who was here first issue. You might have missed it but I'm not talking from a nationalist but from a liberal (live and let live) point of view, so I am not drawing my arguments, or my feelings from the usual nationalistic thought basket, though I feel you are using counterarguments as if I were. I've never said they should vanish or don't have the right to have their own state because the territory used to belong to Hungary.(But I don't blame you, I can imagine you are used to that) (Although I think that the slavic people of the 9th century has not too much cultural connection to today's Slovakia, but I understand that they wish for a longer history and some other root. I think this is the same fenomena as when our lunatics are establishing connections with everybody ranging from the Chinise through the Summerians to the aliens in Syrius, although their version might be at least biologically true.)

To illustrate this, I say after you shed light on this historical fact (previously unknown to me, thanks for the information) that let's build a statue of C&M, I withraw the words contrived and inappropriate. But let me note that before the St. Stephan statue they did not think of that, it only became important to "equalize". But still I would say go on and build it.

I wrote I realize that Felvidék (and I clearly staded what I mean under this name) belongs to Slovakia now. I would be happier if every Hungarians could live in one country, but that is not possible now, so we have to deal with this situation now, we still have to be one nation. Territorial clames would be senseless, so what remains is the civilized, European way: Dual Citizenship&Cultural Autonomy. These might hit to the core of the Slovak minority complex, namely that they are not or will not be strong enough or big enough in number to maintain an own nation (therefore it is no surprise that only they are rasing such a huge racket), but on the other hand, you can't say, that these two solutions are unprecedented in Europe, in fact there are plenty of examples for both of them. (E.g. Italy even gives voting rights without a permanent address in the country, which I strongly do not support in our case)

It is very clear that a Slovakian intentions are towards a nation-state (there might be a better term for that in English) in the age of multicultural societies. I understand the craving for safety in their future existence from their part, but they should realize that they cannot simply convert 500 000 people to be Slovakian by restricting their right to use their language or verbally abuse them from week to week saying that e.g. "There are no Hungarians in Slovakia, only Slovakians speaking Hungarian", and I could list them until morning. On the contrary, this behaviour just alienates the hungarian minority and strengthens their will to withstand the slovakizating attempts.

[pgyzs]

Ok,enough for the differences, let me write about what we might agree on.

The timing of the issue was disasterous and it is not useful for anything else but what you called muscle flexing. As I wrote before I think this nationalistic role is inconvenient for Fico (of course I might be wrong), but he has to do it otherwise, Slota is taking his voters immediately. So it was the uttermost diplomatic faliure to throw this into the middle of the Slovakian election campaign.

But now that the situation is given, I couldn't think of anything more cowardy than to just pull out of the battleground and say "we won't answer provocation". If Orbán started the match, he should fight it through. Even if I firmly believe that this bill with its revealed content (changin who is eligible to apply) is our own business, we should at least try to explain it to the Slovakian public (and not to the Fico, who is obviously doing monkey business or to Slota, who is only out for Hungarian blood). Who knows some of them may do believe that our tanks are just avaiting order (even if we know they would not be certain to have enough fuel to reach the border, but this is an other issue) and we should reassure them. If I want to be consistent with myself I must say we have to start talk to them, we have to start the conversation. Orbán himself should give lengthy interview to SME (for those who would be confused, it is not Fico's party (SMER), but a lead newspaper of Slovakia) explaining our position.

And this would not be weakness even if Jobbik would ring the same bell as SNS but coloured red-white-green this time. I don't know what will happen in the following weeks, perhaps what I outlined will happen although that seems unlikely (but nobody knows Orbán's plans, that is the problem, there is no information). I would be very happy.

[Eva S. Balogh]

pgyzs: "I would be happier if every Hungarians could live in one country, but that is not possible now, so we have to deal with this situation now, we still have to be one nation."

I think it would be time to learn something about the historical demography of the region. All over there are pockets of different nationalities and therefore there is no way all Hungarians can possibly live in the same country. The last time that was the case it was before 1918-1919, but then the problem was that they constituted only half of the population. There is no way of building "nation states" in the true meaning of the word in Eastern Europe.

In addition, let me point out some of the misconceptions of yours. You keep insisting that today's Slovaks have nothing to do with the Slavs living in the region at the time of the Hungarians' arrival. Think that through.

As for the statues of Cyrill and Method and St. Stephen. The city fathers of the town refused to allow the erection of the statue of the saints years ago. As far as I know that C&M statue is therefore perched on the balcony of the building of the Matica Slovenska. It is hard to claim when one hears about things like that the Hungarian minority is oppressed.

What Orbán is doing is outright disadvantageous for the Hungarians of Slovakia. They are the ones who have to live there and suffer the consequences of their loving brethren's actions in Budapest. It's a crime. MKP, the party close to Fidesz, begged them not to act now, before the elections, but Pál Csáky, the party's leader, was brushed aside. So, clearly, Fidesz doesn't really care about the Hungarians living in the neighboring countries but only about their own political advantage in Hungary. It's a shame.

[pgyzs]

"You keep insisting that today's Slovaks have nothing to do with the Slavs living in the region at the time of the Hungarians' arrival."

No I did not keep insisting on that, I meant that e.g. saying Svatopluk was Slovakian is a bit steep at least. According to some Czech friend of mine, they laugh about that on Slovakia, because they claim that the Great Moravian empire is definitely Czech ancestry. To me let me not bother with this issue, I repeat again, I do not care what happend 1000 years ago in todays issues (but of course I'm interested in History) nor do I deny the Slovak right to be a nation, etc., etc.

"I think it would be time to learn something about the historical demography of the region. All over there are pockets of different nationalities and therefore there is no way all Hungarians can possibly live in the same country."

When did I argue otherwise? I just said I would be happier. We would not be living in this barell full of gunpowder all the time. As I wrote I firmly believe that the main problem of Slovakia is that they idealize for themselves an ethnically homogeneous Slovakia (where they would not have to be horrified about demographics), instead of realizing it is not possible and act accordingly.

"It is hard to claim when one hears about things like that the Hungarian minority is oppressed."

You pick one issue against constant verbal abusation and slovakizating attempts, not to mention the Czechoslovak era.

"They are the ones who have to live there and suffer the consequences of their loving brethren's actions in Budapest."

Yes, but it is also sad in the XXI. century Europe, that the Slovakian goverment takes advantage of a hostage situation, and everything we do here risks retaliatory actions against innocent people, don't you think? I don't remember anybody initiating the imposure of any restriction on the Slovakian minority school a few street away from my home after the scandalous language act.

On the other hand, I flicked through some Felvidék-Hungarian blogs and forums, they do not seem to much sad about the matter. Csáky is a politician too and he is in election situation as well. (Even though I still say what I wrote in my previous comment)

"So, clearly, Fidesz doesn't really care about the Hungarians living in the neighboring countries"

That is a very harsh conclusion, they are using a different tactics from what I think would be appropriate, they take into account domestic matters, but that is not equal to not giving a damn. I think this is a muscle flexing contest between him and Fico good luck for them. To be honest two days ago Fico wanted to change the constitution, take away Slovak citizenship from people ASAP, bu today he only wants to meet Orbán. That is a progress. I realize that you think Orbán is the devil incarnate and have very strong emotions against him, but things are not black or white believe me.

[Gilbert]

European law does not allow dual citizenship people to vote in more than one country. In which case you vote where you live and pay taxes. Also given that Europe allows free movement of all people the issue of nationality and residence is already quite separate. So I cannot see why the proposed dual nationality is seen as a threat. Slovakia has already accepted the principle that 9 million Hungarians could move to Slovakia if they wished, so where is the problem?

[Joe Simon]

Dual citizenship is no threat. It would be a psychological boost for the Hungarian minority in Slovakia. Fico would like no doubt to isolate the minority, strip them of any sense identity. They should consider Hungarians as 'államalapitó', which is indeed what they are and not a minority. This is how Canada is treating the French. The French language and culture are integral part of Canada, not to be assimilated or erased. Hungary's neighbors should learn from the Canadian experience. With its silly language laws and 'nyelv-rendőrség', Slovakia will soon earn the name of 'Absurdistan',
Joe Simon.
Ottawa, Canada

[John T]

Joe,

If the Slovaks looked at the Quebec situation over the last 30 - 40 years, they will note that many Québécois want full independence from Canada.

[John T]

Additionally, both times I visited Eastern Canada in the late 1990's it seemed to me that Quebec was quite discriminatory with their language laws / practices, whereas Ontario made a real effort to be bi-lingual. I loved the French / English contrast in many ways, but felt the Québécois wanted to exploit the seperatist angle to its full extent.

[Joe Simon]

Since the Hungarian Spectrum and specifically Eva Balogh is greatly 'concerned' about Hungarian issues,
such as the dual citizenship, I would just like to ask if she has ever visited Erdély,
the Felvidék or Délvidék. In fact when was the last time she visted Hungary? I feel that talking to people in Erdély for example would bring her closer to realities. Slovakia has always tried to isolate the Hungarian minority there, to deny them any identity and to discourage any real relationship with the mother country. The dual citizenship is symbolic,
promoting a cultural unity of all Hungarians.
Joe Simon, Diósgyőr

[Richard]

I know (or let s say I hope) that Pat's comments do not represent prevailing Hungarian ethnic minority position on the future of the Slovak Republic, if yes, it may be time for me to apply for this citizenship as well, although I am Slovak and do not speak more than few Hungarian word:(. Strictly legally, any state has right to accept or not dual citizenship. If Orban wanted Slovak government to accept the dual one he should have started with negotiations, not dictate and not 2 weeks before general elections. Yesterday leader of the opposition right wing party said that there is no place for Hungarian party in the future government (if formed by the opposition), because they do not want to rule the country with FIDESZ branch office in Bratislava. Few years ago was Hungarian party perceived as the most stabile and serious partner in the former coalition government. Instead of economy we discuss Budapest. To sum up, the result of all of this will be deterioration of Hungarian policy in Slovakia, deterioration of mutual relations and growing tension, while ordinary people get nothing.

[michael]

I amd very astonished to read all your 'proffesional' opinions.
But first of all, please, can any of you tell me where in the world one can get a citizenship without beeing a resident of that particular country and not required to proove his language skills?

[pgyzs]

Michael:

E.g. Italy
http://www.italiandualcitizenship.com/

According to even great-father! No language restriction. Spain with its former colonies so on (but there the language issue does not concern for obvious reasons). So just look around.

The situation will be much like the same as the Hungarian in Romania and Serbia. It is a natural desire for every nation to care for its brethens abroad even officially. Slovakia would be the first if there was any large Slovakian ethnic territories outside Slovakia (as there are already negotiations between the Czech Rep and Slovakia in the background about "how to go around the loss of citizenship bill for the czech-slovak duality case", so yeah I could cite Slovakia up until now as well)

Richard:

I can agree with most of what you said, but admit that the responsibility is "dual" as well.

The conversation is hard because I do not know your perception as you do not know mine, but from Budapest, the last 4 years of the Fico era looked like this:

At every second week Slota said something insulting, like you'll jump to your tanks and ruin Budapest, or said that we are about to attack Slovakia ,etc. He's an alcoholic, paranoid, sovinistic idiot so I've already written too much about him (and I know he doesn't represent all Slovakia), but honestly, how would Fico react in a reversed situation if any goverment party member said that we will destroy Bratislava? So we felt more and more humiliated and tensed. And then the language act came, when Fico wiped the floor with the Hungarian goverment for whom foreing policy was nothing but an inconvenience and beleive me he seemed arrogant all the time in the past four years, arrogant as hell, like a real hungarian-ass kicker. So don't be surprised that the desire to kick back rose up.

I agree that Orbán should have waited, not because Fico would have reacted otherwise at anytime, but becoause this has put the Slovak opposition to a coerced course as well.

It was good to read a Slovak opinion other than Madarsky za dunaj (funny, but these are the only words I know in Slovakian) I would really like to know how this looks like from the other side (not just the particular issue, but the last few years too) and I was looking for that but unfortunately I don't speak Slovakian..

[real name]

pgyzs,
correct is "madari za dunaj" (= not magyarul but magyarok)
try
http://globalvoicesonline.org/-/world/eastern-central-europe/slovakia/
for news in english
http://spectator.sme.sk/
http://tv.sme.sk/relacia/this-week-in-slovakia/

[István]

Dear All,

Please somebody explain me why Slota (part of SK government - as far as I know) has the right to talk about destroying Budapest with tanks and at the same time Sólyom can not cross the border for celebrating with fellow Hungarians in Slovakia!
Which one is provocation exactly?
When did you hear any agressive speach from H leaders?

For me this whole issue is about SK minority complex.
Try to be a proud nation and do not abuse other people! H tried to do this in the past and see where we are now...

One day (+/-980 years), you might have 1000 years national history, but today you have steightening economy and your hockey team is not bad either...

Be proud of this and accept that people living in FELVIDÉK (as we call this region for 1000 years) are H people in majority.

Nobody wanted or wants the revision of the national borders, and there is no point anyway! We are both part of EU, so the only difference is the language for administration.

For SK people who dislike H people: be happy, part of the SK people gainig H nationality might move to H in the future, so why complaining? This is your direct interest:)

[real name]

istvan, in slovakia people know about orban's "hungary is only country borders with itself" "unification is necessary" "PM of 15 million hungarians" etc.
(btw. also 'hungary is country with complex')
not speaking about jobbik (they have more %-s than slota) and "necessary to return lost areas" into parliament
if you listen to such selected parts it also sounds terrible
(it does not mean slota's complete speach could sound better than its selected parts)
national history (even for the most slavic, not slovak) for us starts somewhere in 5th century and hungaria (uhorsko) is important part of it (in fact dividing by nationality is for me much younger than 1000 years)
= i can say quite the same like you in the mirror (just personally i will use 'nearly nobody') and i will sound you as strange as yours to me (meeting personally it will disappear soon)

[pgyzs]

real name: thanks

When I first heard it, I was 14 years old and was on a school trip to Bratislava, and was thrown out from a Supermarket because we talked in Hungarian with my friend and I didn't understand what and why was happening. That was when I decided I will argue against this kind of primitivity wherever I encounter it and whoever does it.

[pgyzs]

OK, I got moderated out because I wrote a childhood story of why I hate sovinistic nationalists on both sides (or everywhere). Great.

Then at least leave this: Realname: Thanks for the links

[Eva S. Balogh]

pgyzs: "OK, I got moderated out because I wrote a childhood story of why I hate sovinistic nationalists on both sides (or everywhere)."

No one "moderated [you] out." Interesting that you people always feel persecuted.

[pgyzs]

Sorry, problem was with my browser cache and machine, I just did not see my comment appear, so I thought I was moderated. I apologize.

[zolo45]

all problem is that hungary will give the citizenship to everyone who ask for it. the person who ask for magyar citizenship doesn't have to live permanently in hungary a day or have ever been in hungary. it's enough to prove that he or she is hungarian. think that's not europian standard for such important think as citizenship is. I am slovak who lives in slovak-hungarian town surely I speak hungarian
and maybe I can prove that one of my ancester was "magyar" that's enough to be citizen of hungary. :lol:

[Eva S. Balogh]

zolo45: "I am slovak who lives in slovak-hungarian town surely I speak hungarian and maybe I can prove that one of my ancester was "magyar" that's enough to be citizen of hungary."

I think you can become a Hungarian citizen if you want to. One of your ancestors was surely a Hungarian citizen before 1919-1920 and you speak Hungarian. So, all's set.

I'm facetious, of course, but I think that this is how the law reads. Otherwise, I agree with you fully.

[Sackhoes Contributor]

Gellert writes: "Every Hungarian living abroad is entitled to vote through the systems of Hungarian embassies abroad. " Actually, that's not true, Gellert. Out of 10s of thousands of active Hungarian citizens in the US(with passports) only a handful were able to vote this last election. Only those Hungarians, who can prove that their permanent home is in Hungary and they are in the US only tenporarily can vote, provided that they are registered in Hungary. Even Hungarian-Americans, who own a home in Hungary, can not vote, either in Hungary or in the US.

Other nations are far more incluse: Romanians, gfor example, can vote in US consulates by simply showing proof of citizenship, like a passport. Only the Hungtarians are so paranoid even of their own fellow citizens.

Semjen (leader of the coalition party KDNP) suggested proper voting rights, but he was quickly overruled by Martonyi.

[Network computing Guy]

you are right man ! keep going

[Timberland Waterproof Boots]

Thanks, I'm going to have nightmares tonight.