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« About János Martonyi, the new Hungarian foreign minister | Main | Hungary has a new government »

May 28, 2010

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M.J.

Don't be mistaken by Duray. Duray is a fullfledged revisionist, a hardliner in the MKP.

Stefano Bottoni

I consider indeed very unfortunate that you seem to ignore the following basic difference between the Slovak and the Hungarian government' stance on this issue. While the Hungarian law enlarges citizenship rights without challenging at any level the Slovak state's territorial integrity, the Slovak bill aims at depriving Slovak born citizens from their citizenship, which should be condemned as a serious violation of human rights.
You also seem to ignore that the Slovak Parliament has passed a very similar bill in 2005, and no reactions came from neither the international community nor from the Hungarian government.

Stefao Bottoni

Eva S. Balogh

Stefano Bottoni: "I consider indeed very unfortunate that you seem to ignore the following basic difference between the Slovak and the Hungarian government' stance on this issue."

Well, we differ on the issue. The Hungarian government offers citizenship to citizens of other countries, thus possibly affecting their status, while the Slovak legislation deals with only Slovakia's own citizens. I don't approve such a heavy-handed response but one must admit that this is an internal Slovak affair.

As for my ignoring this or that, I would like to call your attention that the blog deals with three Slovak-Hungarian responses and therefore the thoughts contained here are not my own.

Stefano Bottoni

Your answer seems to ignore two basic facts.
1) the decision to extend citizens right is a Hungarian internal affair. Hungary is not requested to ask anyone for preliminary agreement on that. Double citizenship, as you may know, does not affect any status. I'm an Italian-Hungarian double citizes, enjoying full citizenship righst in both countries. Should it be considered as a security threat in the era of European integration?

2) As far as I know, human rights do not stop at the Slovak-Hungarian border. The Slovak reaction is NOT an internal issue, because it affects EU citizens.

Finally, it is quite evident from you post that you are supporting the views of Morvay and Barack. It is your right to do so, but I would like to raise your attention to other legitimate viewpoints, which contradict your assertion.

Eva S. Balogh

Stefano Bottoni: "I'm an Italian-Hungarian double citizes, enjoying full citizenship righst in both countries. Should it be considered as a security threat in the era of European integration?"

Such comparisons are disingenious because they bear no resemblance to the Slovak-Hungarian situation. In Slovakia about 10% of the population consists of Hungarians who live alongside the Slovak-Hungarian border. To compare a few dozen Italian-Hungarian citizens to the Slovak situation is outright ridiculous.

You ought to appreciate Slovak fears. Moreover, it is not a good idea to act like a bull in the china closet and ignore a legitimate request for consultation and negotiation. Bad practice in international affairs.

Stefano Bottoni

It seems that you also fail to understand that international right does not know the question of size and geographic position.
As far as diplomatic best practice is concerned, formal correctness should not be confused with Kadar-style self-humiliation. Hungarian designated foreign minister Martonyi paid his first visit to Bratislava just to discuss the issue of double citizenship before the law was passed by the Hungarian parliament. I'm wondering what else should have he done. I think I know your answer: he should have abandoned the whole project. But it's precisely what I'm contesting you: defensive, fearful foreign policy only exacerbate the successor states' nationalism. Or should we consider the Hungarian foreign policy towards post-2006 Slovakia a success story?

Eva S. Balogh

Stefano Bottoni: "It seems that you also fail to understand that international right does not know the question of size and geographic position."

Well, in that case, just go ahead. We will see how far will Hungary get with this kind of belligerent attitude. The reaction up to date is not promising.

I don't think that it is worth continuing this discussion because we hold entirely different views on the subject. Only time will tell who was right. Since the first Orbán government's foreign policy under the guidance of János Martonyi was a disaster I don't think that a repeat performance will bring better results.

real name

for me it is hard to imagine what kind of advantage Slovak Hungarians could have (even without Slovak reaction), especially when already was declared that with Hungarian citizenship they will not receive right to vote there
another SME article declares older Hungarian card gives them more
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sme.sk%2Fc%2F5382015%2Fnasi-madari-vyhody-dvojakeho-obcianstva-nevidia.html
traveling advantage could be for Hungarians out of Schengen or EU, but because of them Orban already faces problem with reintroduction of US and Canadian visas
Slovak (for me too-fast) reaction was clearly influenced by incoming elections (and could be later canceled by Constitutional Court), but it was reaction to someone who can't stand wait a few weeks
Duray surprised me too - is there any link to his interview?

Eva S. Balogh

real name: "Duray surprised me too - is there any link to his interview?"

I heard it on Friday on Bolgar's talk show. www.galamus.hu publishes his intervews a few days later when transcripts become available. I will let you know what it is on.

Passing Stranger

You are both wrong. Whatever the Hungarians or Slovaks do with their citizenship law, is up to themselves. Within the EU this is a matter for the member states. The silence of both the Commission and the Council says enough. Hungary's new law is not exceptional, and neither is Slovakia's outlawing of dual citizenship. Legally, what both countries are doing falls well within the bounds of what is permissable. Providing Slovakia does not make anyone stateless, there is no real problem, legally speaking.

Politically, however, the situation is a mess. Slovakia's language law is clearly discriminatory and action on Hungary's part is understandable. It would have been sensible for Hungary to provoke and fund court cases in Slovakia, as I doubt this law would survive scrutiny by the ECJ.
That would give Hungary the moral high ground, while using the EU institutions to do what they were built for.

As it is, Fidesz has abused its constitutional majority by enforcing a law that was soundly defeated in a referendum
several years ago. Though Fidesz is perfectly entitled to do with its majority whatever it likes, to present this law as fulfilling an ancient Hungarian dream is a farce.

Certainly the timing is miserably chosen. Along with the Trianon memorial day it can only help Fico and Slota, the very politicians Fidesz love to hate. If I were a cynic I'd say any growth in Slovak nationalism will only help Fidesz the coming years from deflecting attention from the only really important issue concerning Hungary, which is the state of its economy.

Fidesz's "tough" line has not gained Hungary anything. In a move that was as brilliant as it was petty and nationalist, the Slovaks nullified the usefulness of this law by outlawing dual citizenship.

The reality is, that no Hungarian government has really had any room for manouevre, whether it was Horthy, Kadar, Antall, Horn, Gyurcsany or Orban. Violence doesn't help, and nor does appeasement of nationalists.

The difference with the past is that Hungary could now use its EU membership to improve the fate of minorities abroad. However, I do not really see any attempts to do this at all.


Eva S. Balogh

Passing Stranger: "You are both wrong. Whatever the Hungarians or Slovaks do with their citizenship law, is up to themselves."

Maybe I didn't express myself well but I know about all this except I think that Hungary shouldn't have brought up the issue this time and in that way.

I was thinking about this whole business this afternoon and I compared it in my head the situation between two neighboring countries to two ordinary neighbors living next to each other.

Here is my example. According to town ordinance one cannot build any structure closer to the fence line than 20 feet. When we moved in there was a very ugly shed about 2 feet from the fence line quite visible from our long driveway. We certainly could have gone to town hall to complain and insist that the neighbors tear down the ugly shed. We would have been in our right but what would have been the consequence? The neighbors would have hated us and would have done all sorts of nasty things to make our lives very difficult.

Instead we made friends with the neighbors and eventually suggested that we will clear out the ugly bushes on our side of the fence and plant evergreens instead and he would tear down the ugly shed which is no use to him anyway. It worked. That is called compromise.

Eva S. Balogh

real name: "Duray surprised me too - is there any link to his interview?"

The transcript of the Duray interview is now available:
http://galamus.hu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12199&catid=69&Itemid=106&limitstart=3

Dan

The Hungarian status law is discriminatory. The Romanian law gives citizenship to any person with ancestors that lived within the current Romanian borders, regardless of their ethnicity. The Hungarian law gives citizenship only to Hungarian ethnics, which is discriminatory and therefore void in Romania.

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