Hungarian skeletons return

Late last night Viktor Orbán had a half hour conversation with Csaba Azurák, reporter on TV2's "Tények este" (Facts at night). The conversation covered a lot of topics from the local elections to "renationalization." But the topic that raised a lot of eyebrows was the prime minister's assertion that the deficit at the moment is 4.4% because the Bajnai government's  budget "was full of falsification, wrong numbers and mistaken calculations." According to Orbán the country is sweating blood in order to honor the promised deficit of 3.9%. "Because of the international environment the country cannot possibly change this number and therefore we must collect the missing income in the form of surtaxes."

Not surprisingly the reporter wanted to have concrete examples of these falsifications and tricks with the numbers. The answer was somewhat confused, I assume purposely so. According to Orbán "if we talk about the year 2009 there it is obvious that the numbers are false." Which year are we talking about? Surely, not about 2009 but about 2010. So, what is the prime minister's point? He claims that expenditures that were supposed to be taken care of in 2009 were moved forward to be paid in 2010.

The reporter was still not satisfied and inquired, "Where do you see that?" Meaning which specific items are we talking about? But by virtue of the way he formulated the question "Hol látják ezt?" (Where can one/you see that?) Orbán could get out of a sticky situation by claiming that "they see this for example in Brussels and that's the problem...." It is safe to say that Viktor Orbán is not telling the truth (unless, of course, he is using "Brussels" to refer to the Fidesz delegation to the European parliament rather than the EU officials who are overseeing Hungary's budget) because both the IMF and the EU maintained all along that there were no skeletons, no tricks in the Hungarian budget. But he continued in this vein: "We here at home can be clever but in Brussels unfortunately they see clearly. In fact, everybody who is familiar with the workings of the Hungarian economy can see it clearly." Again, I would like to remind everybody that only Fidesz and later the Orbán government claimed that the budgetary figures were false. All those foreign experts claimed exactly the opposite. And again, he talks as if he were speaking a language that no one understands and that this whole conversation remains a secret to the outside world.

The nasty reporter wanted to know more and inquired how much money we are talking about. It is a fairly substantial difference, was the answer, half a percentage point. So, instead of a budget deficit of 3.9% it is at the moment 4.4%. And he added, "we will be forced to report this to Brussels." In order to plant an impression of gravity and urgency he told the reporter that "the experts are working all night in order to analyze the differences and find out the consequences of all this."

And once again comes the confusing communication. A few hours later György Matolcsy set out to calm nerves by saying that "we are naturally not happy about the 0.5% increase in the deficit, but we are not scared either." In monetary terms this means a gap of about 120-130 billion forints which can easily be taken care of. He also revealed that next week he is going to Washington to take part in the IMF's yearly meeting where he is going to explain that today's Hungary is in a very different place from where it was three or four months ago. He will tell the IMF that "we made all the necessary hard decisions by which we will consolidate Hungary's finances without any austerity measures." Moreover, soon enough they will embark on lowering Hungary's debt load. At the same time they "will begin economic growth and [they] will do their best to raise the level of employment." As if it were that simple!

Well, these words were primarily for foreign consumption. At home, with local elections imminent, Fidesz politicians continued to harp on the sins of their predecessors. Péter Szijjártó, Viktor Orbán's personal spokesman and a master of exaggeration and even outright lies, was in his element. "Today what we have suspected all along became fact: the socialist governments of the Gyurcsány era manipulated the budget data." So here we go again! Antal Rogán, who has lately been parading as an economic expert, was already talking about the "mistakes, sins, and responsibilities" of the Bajnai government because the 2010 budget "was born in a lie." While Matolcsy says "no sweat," there is enough money to fill the hole, Rogán is talking about "solutions the government must present to parliament." Gordon Bajnai as well as Péter Oszkó denied all the accusations, but their explanations surely don't reach as many people as an interview with the prime minister.

So, again, the Fidesz government is spinning a financial tale that can negatively affect Hungary's international standing to make political gains at home. The whole thing seems superfluous and petty. Fidesz will win big on Sunday at the local elections. There will be very few towns that will have socialist leadership, but then why risk a possible run-in with Brussels? It's hard to understand. It is most likely the pathological hunger for power that leads Viktor Orbán. The other side must be totally destroyed. However, he should know that politics doesn't work that way.

Comments

[Paul Haynes]

I'm sure we're all waiting with breath bated for Szilárd's response.

But, before you start, Szilárd, can I make a personal request - can you please refrain from abuse, personal attacks, and accusing Eva or anyone else on here from lying?

Not only would thid make your replies easier to stomach, but you will find the rest of us will treat your thoughts with much more repect that way.

You are the only poster on here who resorts to these attacks, so please desist - for your sake, as well as ours.

Thank you.

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Eva: "It is safe to say that Viktor Orbán is not telling the truth"

As the Central Statistics Office (KSH) has also reported the missing 0.5%, it is safe to say that it's you not telling the truth.

For readers interested in the truth rather than this pathologic hatred-speech against Orbán, see this short analysis (in English):
http://www.portfolio.hu/en/cikkek.tdp?k=2&i=20961

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Paul: sorry, I read your response too late.
However, I hope you are not frightened very much as I used Eva's own but untrue words turned into a situation where they become true.

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Eva: and please don't lose your patience over my choice of words. If you kick me out of here, who will your faithful readers call then liar, anti-Semite, a believer in the worldwide Jewish plot, a blind Fidesz follower, or one without a clue in History?
For their sake, don't do it.

[Paul Haynes]

Don't worry, Szilard, most of us would urge Eva not to ban you, should the situation arise. This blog would be a bit boring if we all agreed with each other all the time. I just wish you'd disagree with everyone a little more moderately.

I read the portfolio link you provided and can see nothing there that supports your statement that "As the Central Statistics Office (KSH) has also reported the missing 0.5%, it is safe to say that it's you (Eva) not telling the truth."

You need to understand the difference between the reporting of raw data and the intepretations placed upon it. One is fact, the other is just opinion.

Unless you meant the OV link, of course, but that's just the usual unsupported Fidesz anti-Socialist guff, so of no value at all in this debate.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Paul: "most of us would urge Eva not to ban you, should the situation arise. This blog would be a bit boring if we all agreed with each other all the time."

I wish Szilárd would realize that here he represents the Hungarian Right. Readers will judge Fidesz, Orbán, and the present Hungarian government on the basis of his appearance on these pages. If he is ignorant, if he is rude, if he is trying to present Hungarian history a way that is incorrect, readers will form an opinion about the whole Hungarian right in a unfavorable light. So he should be very careful.

First and foremost I suggest that he reads a reliable book on 20th-century Hungarian history. I would recommend Ignác Romsics's book entitled Magyarország története a XX. században. It is a middle-of-the read interpretation of the History of Hungary in the twentieth century. At least then he would be able to argue his side more intelligently.

[Paul Haynes]

"The other side must be totally destroyed."

Reading this reminded me that the other day my wife reported, via her mother, that Orbán was apparently complaining that it was difficult to govern without an effective opposition!

As for our friend Szilard, I fear he IS actually quite typical of Fidesz supporters. His opinions and 'method' of argument when faced with facts and analysis he doesn't like, are very similar to the passionate Fidesz supporters I know.

It would be interesting indeed if he read Romsics's history, as it struck me as a thorough and well balanced account. But I must admit I found it hard going, the way it is structured is not easy reading for the layman.

On the same topic, I'd be interested in what books (in English) Mark, as a historian, would recommend. I've found it very difficult to find good Hungarian histories in English. Most are either very difficult to get hold of or/and very expensive. Something reliable that covered the period after 1990 (at least the first 10 years) would be good too (although I appreciate the historians' dislike of delving to deeply into recent times!).

[Sandor]

Szilard: "For readers interested in the truth rather than this pathologic hatred-speech against Orbán, see this short analysis"

Szilard, there is nothing pathologic, or even unreasonable about detesting Orban and his merry men. In fact all you need is a bit of learning, (nothing strenuous to be sure), and a bit of benevolent skepticism. If you could master those, you could not help either detesting this poseur, this untalented epigon of Benito Mussolini, or even worse, the slavish imitator of mussolini's real epigon: Berlusconi.
Imitating an epigon; now that almost takes a talent!

Paul: "I've found it very difficult to find good Hungarian histories in English. Most are either very difficult to get hold of or/and very expensive."

Paul, don't be surprised if the good ones are expensive. It is a natural consequence of how difficult it is to write a good comprehensive book of history. For myself, I recommend Peter Hanak's book, although I cannot remember how far it goes. Certainly not up to the nineties, since Hanak died before. On the other hand it was published in English as well:
A History of Hungary - Hardcover (Dec. 1990) by Peter F. Sugar, Peter Hanak, and Tibor Frank
Buy new: $44.95
4 new from $29.95
17 used from $6.40

And as you see, it is not even so expensive.

[Karl Pfeifer]

Pásztor Szilárd, please do not pretend to be a martyr, who is called without any reason all kind of names.
In German we say those who distribute must be able to receive. So given your style of writing, you can’t be surprised that you get sometimes also the answers you deserve.
And probably it would be really useful, if you take the good advice and read the books of serious historians.

[Passing Stranger]

@I would recommend Ignác Romsics's book entitled Magyarország története a XX. században@

It has been published in English, under the title "Hungary in the twentieth century".

[Longstreet]

Just a reminder to those folks with short memories, to recall the greatness of the fallen hero of the liberal, democractic Left, whose bravery was so great that he could utter these fateful words in a secret speech reserved only for his party comrades. What feat it must have been to be there:

"We were lying in the morning, in the night and in the evening!"

And

"We f*cked it up - not just a little, but a great deal."

Then the finest moment:

"I almost kicked the bucket in pretending to have governed in the last one and half year."

Hungary will be eternally grateful to those who have delivered us from this parasitic bunch of useless comlib thieves. And if Orban and his folks have had their share of corruption, they will be out of power, too. But first, let's just settle the bill with the usurpers of the past 8 years, and we can worry about what is to come afterwards.

[Longstreet]

For Sandor:

"If you could master those, you could not help either detesting this poseur, this untalented epigon of Benito Mussolini, or even worse, the slavish imitator of mussolini's real epigon: Berlusconi."

And this is when you are being reasonable and free of any hatred.

[Longstreet]

"It is most likely the pathological hunger for power that leads Viktor Orbán."

Wow, a psychoanalyst, at last. What's your view on Gyurcsány dancing in his office imitating Hugh Grant (between two hot-off-the-oven actual plans of god-only-knows how many steps, or the tale on finding a wandering girl in his street, or the envy of France, Germany and the rest for Hungary's economic conditions, just a couple of years ago (when we were assured that [1] there is no financial crisis, and [2] even if there is, it won't affect Hungary)? Or was it the liberal phenomenon Kóka, who got elected as party chairman of SZDSZ in a fraudulent way? These comlib cheaters are so hard to distinguish.

[Odins lost eye]

Pastor Szilárd, I do wish that you would not blame the messenger for the message. If it comes to a choice between the reports produced by the IMF/ECB and those from the Hungarian Central Statistics Office (KSH), I for one would choose those from the IMF/ECB. My reasons are that these people are bankers and are firstly trying to help the wretched Hungarian people out of the mess their governments (all of them, since 1948) have gotten their people into. As you must know bankers are not charities, they were looking at Hungary to see how Hungary could repay the loan in a reasonable time and what actions the Hungarians would have to take to be able to do so. At the same time the bankers were looking to see what path the Hungarian Government would have to follow to set their finances into good order. Because of the ‘diktats’ of ‘The Mighty One’ (Orban Victor) the folk at Hungarian Central Statistics Office (KSH), fearing for their jobs, will produce any figures they are told to. I know which figures I trust.
The idea that a ‘loan’ is in reality a ‘gift’ is all too prevalent amongst Hungarians and therefore ‘loans’ need not be repaid.
Out good hostess says ** “If he is ignorant, if he is rude, if he is trying to present Hungarian history a way that is incorrect, readers will form an opinion about the whole Hungarian right in a unfavourable light. So he should be very careful” *. If you cannot do this then people like me will judge those you are trying to represent is the same light as we view your words. Your words can destroy those you support. A little word of advice, the KGB used to say “there is bad propaganda, there is good propaganda and there is the ‘BBC’. That came from the mouths of the arch sellers of disinformation! Westerners are so used to filtering what we are told, that the truth soon ‘outs’ We know despite the adverts which says “That nothing acts faster than Anadin –a type of analgesic-” that if you have a headache you might well use their product. We also know that a lie will be halfway round the world before the truth has even put its shoes on, but the truth always wins in the end.
Think about it! And remember the old Latin tag ‘Nihil nice bonum dixit’

[Longstreet]

The idea that a ‘loan’ is in reality a ‘gift’ is all too prevalent amongst Hungarians and therefore ‘loans’ need not be repaid.

This fairly generalizing and patronizing notion tells it all - you have no grasping of Hungarians regard these loans. These are but chains, placed upon us by our former Commie leaders (like Fekete János), leading us to massive debt, just to prolong their comrades' ruling) and their ilk, continuing to force Hungary under foreign ruling, be it either the Soviet Union or the IMF.

[Paul Haynes]

"These are but chains, placed upon us by our former Commie leaders (like Fekete János), leading us to massive debt, just to prolong their comrades' ruling) and their ilk, continuing to force Hungary under foreign ruling, be it either the Soviet Union or the IMF."

Meanwhile, back on planet reality...

[Paul Haynes]

"But first, let's just settle the bill with the usurpers of the past 8 years, and we can worry about what is to come afterwards."

And meanwhile, let's not worry about the less important things like democracy, the economy and telling the truth.

[Longstreet]

If it is "democracy" that is defended by blinding people with a spray of rubber bullets, if it is "economy" that runs to IMF to bail out for 7 straight years of mismanagement, and if it is "telling the truth" that is the diametrically oppopsite of what had been propagated (and what was blamed on the opposition) then to hell with it.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Longstreet: "But first, let's just settle the bill with the usurpers"

If I recall these "usurpers" won the elections.

[Longstreet]

Yes. So did Hitler in 1933 or the communists in Hungary upon Soviet bayonets in 1948.

[OpenDog]

Is anybody still on this blog who is not Hungarian? Probably Mark was the last one ...

Do you see now why is this shitty little country not going anywhere?

[Longstreet]

One would think that debate brings about improvement and solution... and actually yes, with the previous regime's corrupt politicians marching in one way towars the prison, I would think that Hungary does go in the right direction.

[Paul Haynes]

Sandor - thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately it's £16 on Amazon over here. But maybe Mikulás will look kindly on my shoes.

Mark - what is your opinion of the other easily available history of Hungary - 'A History of Hungary: Millennium in Central Europe' by Dr László Kontler?

I have read this (or most of it!) and found it fairly easy to read and understand and (as far as I can tell) balanced. Personally, I'm not so interested in Medieval times, so that part was a struggle, but I found it an easier read that Romsics' book.

Is there anything of your own work that is available and not too expensive?

[Eva S. Balogh]

Longstreet: "So did Hitler in 1933 or the communists in Hungary upon Soviet bayonets in 1948."

Your logic is faulty here. After they won the elections the socialist-liberal government didn't introduce a one-party dictatorship. As for your second example, the country wasn't under occupation in 2002 and 2006.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Open Dog: "Is anybody still on this blog who is not Hungarian? Probably Mark was the last one ... Do you see now why is this shitty little country not going anywhere?"

A lot of people. More than you think. What is your problem with this shitty little country? That not everybody supports Viktor Orbán?

[Paul Haynes]

Longstreet - we have a saying over here, which may well be common in other countries - "None so blind as those who will not see".

I hope you enjoy the Hungary that will be left after 4 years (or longer) of OV's orgasm of supreme power. But, personally, I weep to see what the poor deluded citizens of my adopted country have brought upon themselves.

[Longstreet]

It is not my logic that fails, but your reading - I did not make any comment on the afterwards, but merely pointed out that winning an election is not a guarantee for anything, and indeed, the post-2002 regime's cheating, lying and their cover-up by the servant media does amount to an interesting appreciation of the concept of democracy.

[Longstreet]

"That not everybody supports Viktor Orbán?"

That's a self-promoting description of acting as a mouthpiece for the failed regime. Most independently and fairly, of course.

[Longstreet]

"I hope you enjoy the Hungary that will be left after 4 years (or longer) of OV's orgasm of supreme power."

So much interested in Orbán's orgasms, are you? Ask his wife about such issues. Or change the country's electorate (they are genetically anti-Semite scum anyway), they simply don't deserve the greatness and success this past 8 years have brough upon them.

[Pete H.]

Longstreet, you have set up a false dichotomy. There is no reason people shouldn't keep a critical eye on the new regime. Without a vocal and active opposition governments tend towards tyranny. Orban's crew have taken some steps that appear from outside of Hungary to look very anti-democratic. Saying so in no way precludes dealing with any real crimes the past regime may have committed.

[OpenDog]

@Eva "That not everybody supports Viktor Orbán?"
No, no. You misunderstood me. I enjoy your blog very much. I wouldn't say it is always fair but it doesn't have to be. I was just frustrated with the style of the postings. The same pointless yelling is going on at home; that's why this wonderful little country isn't going anywhere.

[Eva S. Balogh]

OpenDog: "The same pointless yelling is going on at home; that's why this wonderful little country isn't going anywhere."

A good debate can be useful although I must admit that people rarely change their minds. What is really sad that most people can't even admit that they have been wrong.

However, the other day I had a pleasant surprise. A Hungarian political scientist and I were participating in a conference last year in the United States. We had opposing views on the nature of the future Orbán government and we even had a little run-in.

In the last couple of months I heard him several times on Hungarian television and he looked pretty disappointed. So, I decided to write him a brief note reminding him of his earlier predictions. I didn't even think that he would answer but he did. And, surprise, surprise, he admitted that I was right and he was wrong. That doesn't happen too often.

[Karl Pfeifer]

@Longstreet@: "Hungary will be eternally grateful to those who have delivered us from this parasitic bunch of useless comlib thieves."
You must be a prophet to know what Hungary will be in eternity. When after the elections tomorrow it will become clear to everyone that Fidesz has no economic policy, when Hungarians will have less money to spend, probably some Hungarians will not share your attitudes.
Your view is very simple, when you write about the "parasitic bunch". What does one do with parasites? One exterminates them. And Hungary under Horthy has a record of letting deport about 500.000 of it's citizens, considered by so many Hungarians to be parasites. Most of them were killed in the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau.
So in your place I would not call human beings, as much as you hate them, parasites.
On the other side, you suggest that all Fidesz and Jobbik people are honest. Experience shows us that this is not so, that Fidesz is not an assembly of monks, who only are charitable.
Today the conservative German daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ) published a very critical article about antisemitism and revisionism in Hungary. Now Reinhard Olt who wrote the piece can’t be accused to belong to the left or to hate Fidesz. But truth comes out. And when the High Court in Hungary believes that incitement against “gypsy-crime” is part of freedom of opinion, FAZ is reporting about that. More than anything else it shows in what moral situation Hungary is.

[Rigó Jancsi]

I guess the problem is that the "shitty little country" seems to lack some political culture, in debate and in daily life. I find it a pity to see celebrations on August 20th attended either by Fidesz oder MSZP followers, but they don't mix. I'm sure it will be the same again on October 23rd. In Germany, I see chancellor and opposition leader sitting next to each other on such occations. Here, the political enemy seems to be a real enemy, which has to be hunted and killed, or to say it with Evas words: totally destroyed. And you know, when two Hungarians meet, they already represent three political parties, maybe that's why suicide numbers are so high...

Longstreet, Hungarians maybe don't see loans as gifts in general, for sure not anymore. But it's not been Gyurcsány who convinced his fellow Hungarians to take private loans in Schweizer Franken. If I want to buy a flat or house which I cannot afford and I get myself lured in by some friendly banking sales agent, that's my own fault, nobody elses, and I cannot blame the government. People went willingly into those chains to get the lifestyle and wealth they were longing for.

Concerning the infamous speech by Gyurcsány - already at that time I thought: "Well, finally a politician who has the balls to admit it." You don't think that OV is thinking and maybe even saying anything else right now? He only makes sure that no microphones are turned on, when he discusses together with Matolcsy how they can hide the cold, terrible truth from the voters until, say, Sunday evening 8 p.m. Be prepared to meet a completely different OV on Monday morning, who will still blame Gyurcsányi, Bajnai and everybody else for the current situation, but who will announce a strict austerity policy for the future. The announcement will be garnished with a lot of national pompousness, rescue the nation, unity in times of dangers etc. etc., but the message will be clear: I have lied to you until the local elections, by day and night, and now we'll have to see how we get out of this mess together.

[Mark]

Paul Haynes: "Mark - what is your opinion of the other easily available history of Hungary - 'A History of Hungary: Millennium in Central Europe' by Dr László Kontler?"

It is a very good introductory history written by a very good historian. I certainly have it on my shelves.

There is a little bit of a problem with the histories of Hungary in the twentieth century that are out there in English. They tend to concentrate on high politics; they tend - because of their focus on politics within national border - to neglect the relationships between present-day Hungary and the peoples of the Carpathian basin; they underplay social history; and tend not to think of Hungarian history as the history of all the peoples that live there (Roma as well as Magyar; Jew as well as Christian). Also I think a lot of the syntheses reflect the lack of research on subjects such as the period post-1968.

If I were starting with a book in English I would start with Romsics's Hungary in the Twentieth Century, which is available through Amazon in the UK even if it is a bit pricey. Romsics's book is not perfect but he presents the political history very clearly; he is balanced, and he is factual.

I am writing my own - but I am very late with it on account of the task being rather more difficult than I imagined.

[Mark]

OpenDog: "Is anybody still on this blog who is not Hungarian? Probably Mark was the last one ... "

I'm not even the only historian among the commenters. Including our host and myself, there are at least four of us with PhDs and research careers in modern Hungarian history that comment on here. On account of this Szilárd and Longstreet might want to invest in a good encyclopedia before they descend into the lion's den ......

[Eva S. Balogh]

Rigó Jancsi: As for the Gyurcsány speech. I'm sick and tired of repeating that the right-wing interpretation of Gy's speech is inaccurate. He wasn't talking about the MSZP but about the whole Hungarian political elite which fooled the people by promising all sorts of things instead of telling them the truth. Unfortunately, in the passion of the moment (and he always spoke without notes) he didn't explain everything as clearly as he could have. Plus he should have delivered that speech in public. Perhaps right after the elections.

As for Viktor Orbán. He should have learned something about what happened to Ferenc Gyurcsány. It is not a good idea to lie and then not being able to deliver. He might be able to fool the Hungarians for a while, but knowing people's patience when it comes to their pocket books it will not long before his popularity will shrink and shrink and shrink. And perhaps one day Hungarians will learn that there are no miracles.

[Paul Haynes]

Thanks Mark. I already have the Romsics book on my shelves, but I find it difficult to read because of the way he structures it, separating the chapters into 'economy', 'education and culture', etc. This is a bit too 'academic' for me, I prefer a more straightforward narrative.

How about 'The Hungarians: A Thousand Years of Victory in Defeat' by Paul Lendvai? I've had this recommended to me several times, but it's always been too expensive - but it's on Amazon now for £16. I can only afford to buy a few books at this sort of price, so is it worth it?

Good luck with your book!

[Paul Haynes]

"So much interested in Orbán's orgasms, are you? Ask his wife about such issues."

Well argued, Longstreet. I was impressed with your grasp of the issues and your adroit marshalling of the facts and presentation of your sources.

Well done.

[whoever]

"Unfortunately, in the passion of the moment (and he always spoke without notes) he didn't explain everything as clearly as he could have."

An excellent euphemism for 'tired and emotional' or, as is otherwise depicted, 'drunk as a skunk!'

[Longstreet]

"presentation of your sources."

I am terribly sorry not to be able of more assistance concerning Orbán's orgasms, and can not stop admiring your prophetic factuality - akin to Jeremiah - emanating from this bit of wisdom:

"I hope you enjoy the Hungary that will be left after 4 years (or longer) of OV's orgasm of supreme power."

Yep, a whole load of facts. Or something else.

[Longstreet]

"Orban's crew have taken some steps that appear from outside of Hungary to look very anti-democratic."

Talk about uninvited prophets. Did you say something when people got beaten up, arrested and abused by police, under Gyurcsány's direct commanding (he himself admitted it), including broken ribs and fingers, during the previous regime, or was it in line with your sense of democracy?

"Saying so in no way precludes dealing with any real crimes the past regime may have committed."

Right. THAT is the first thing to do, as it has doomed our country's future for decades, if not more.

[Longstreet]

He wasn't talking about the MSZP but about the whole Hungarian political elite which fooled the people by promising all sorts of things instead of telling them the truth.

This is a shameless LIE. Here is the original text, in Hungarian. In thsi part Gyurcsány makes special reference on the past one and half years and the direct responsibility of the Socialists and Liberals, and there is NOT A SINGLE WORD about trying to spread the blame on the other governments (which, he nevertheless, did try later on in the Parliament):

Nincsen sok választás. Azért nincsen, mert elkúrtuk. Nem kicsit, nagyon. Európában ilyen böszmeséget még ország nem csinált, amit mi csináltunk. Meg lehet magyarázni, nyilvánvalóan végig hazudtuk az utolsó másfél-két évet. Teljesen világos volt, hogy amit mondunk, az nem igaz. Annyival vagyunk túl az ország lehetőségein, hogy azt, mi azt nem tudtuk korábban elképzelni, hogy ezt a Magyar Szocialista Párt és a liberálisok közös kormányzása valaha is megteszi.

So much about posing as independent and factual - just a cheap and easily controllable lie.

[Longstreet]

"Be prepared to meet a completely different OV on Monday morning, who will still blame Gyurcsányi, Bajnai and everybody else for the current situation, but who will announce a strict austerity policy for the future."

Can I have next week's winner lottery numbers, please?

[Longstreet]

"You must be a prophet to know what Hungary will be in eternity. When after the elections tomorrow it will become clear to everyone that Fidesz has no economic policy,"

Boy, with this little somersault you made my day. Apparently, you are a prophet yourself too to know what's going to happen in Hungary tomorrow :-DDD

And while you are ranting about "so many Hungarians" considering the Jews as parasites (I note that it is you who has brought this association up, not me - thus raising even old Sigismund Freud's interest stretching out on his heavenly couch), it was not the Hungarians who did the killing. None of them.
And if FAZ publishes something about Hungary - so what? Come and live amongst thos poor countryside elderly, who are regularly robbed by Gypsies, talk to some of the parents whose kids have been beaten up by Gypsies, instead of whining in your comfy chair somewhere in a good distance. How odd, FAZ did not seem to be very interested when a teacher got lynched by a Gypsy mob, or when a gang of over 100 Gypsies with knoves and clubs, marched in Siófok intimidating the lcals, apparently unstopped by the police. Surely, they were all for the noble principles of human dignity and minority rights, weren't they?

[Longstreet]

"On the other side, you suggest that all Fidesz and Jobbik people are honest."

Yep, you can start counting when I said anything about Jobbik. I can wait...

[Longstreet]

"And, surprise, surprise, he admitted that I was right and he was wrong."

If this little story has the same amount of truth in it as in your (how to say.... inventive, maybe) interpretation on how Gyurcsány implicated the whole political class in Hungary in his secret speech, then this fellow is not even in existence.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Longstreet: "Nincsen sok választás. Azért nincsen, mert elkúrtuk. Nem kicsit, nagyon. Európában ilyen böszmeséget még ország nem csinált, amit mi csináltunk.

Not a word about other governments? Read it again. "In Europe there is no other country that has done such a stupid thing as we have." Surely, he is talking about Hungary as a whole.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Longstreet, I'm warning you. You don't call anyone a liar here and that includes me. Unless you are ready to discuss matter in a civilized manner you will be leaving us soon.

[Alias3T]

Longstreet. I've spent quite a bit of time in the more miserable parts of Borsod county. Imagine being a gypsy in a godforsaken village in Cserehat. The only work is in the mayor's fruit orchard. He pays the minimum wage, but he cheats, so you end up being paid for only two thirds of the hours you worked. Once, the fruit orchard belonged to the local agricultural cooperative, but throuhgout the early 90s, the mayor, by various 'interesting' manoeuvres, was able to get the whole thing for himself.

His daughter's house is the biggest in town, his is the second-biggest. Meanwhile, on the mayorship front, he's done bugger all in 20 years: nobody in the village has plumbing or sewage. Although somehow the mayor is rich.

Your children can't escape from this - the only money around is the the money the mayor will give you for working on his orchards. That's not quite enough to pay for a place in a kollegium in the nearest town, so there's absolutely no chance of your son going to secondary school. Realistically, there's no chance of yours or your family's fates changing any time in the next decade. You have no money, you're not going to have any money, and nor will your children.

Who do you blame for the gypsy crime? The village mayor, somehow rich after 20 years, despite having failed to install sewage in the village? The county, for having not paid any attention to this miserable corner of the world? The government for allowing mayors to run their own fiefdoms like medieval barons? The police, for failing to investigate all the strange moments in this story where a fat local potentate got slightly richer?

Nah, let's just blame the gyppos.

For a patriot, you don't seem to know a lot about your own country.

[Longstreet]

Good. You DID NOT TELL THE TRUTH (just like Gyurcsány afterwards) when you wrote that Gyurcsány implicated the whole Hungarian political class. Because you tried to shield that Gyurcsány specifically DID mention the Socialists and the Liberals, and the past one-and-half, two years. NOT OTHER PERIOD. Now it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that by doing so he unequivocally and squarely placed the blame on their own government. And if you want to be fair (which I doubt) you clearly understand that Gyurcsány's reference to no other European government has done this has nothing to do with really comparing to other governments, but one of his usual hyperbolic figure of speech. Now do whatever you want - you may ban me, couldn't care less, so you can enjoy your little bizarro world in this sandpool. But that won't make you any more honest or less prejudiced in your views.

[Longstreet]

I'm sure those folks marching up and down in Siófok, or extorting money from their fellow Gypsies in South Baranya are also motivated by their ill fortune. Somehow, interestingly, I don't get much of the information on poor non-Gypsies committing the same crimes, which, mind you, even their vajda in Borsod megye acknowledges as "gypsy crime" He must be another racist Hungarian, what say you?

[Alias3T]

What, exactly, are you saying? That gypsies are somehow more prone to be criminal? You appear very willing to condemn gypsies without being in the least bit curious about how those conditions arose in the first place.

Take a look at these people:
http://www.cicsero.net/uj/
Would you say they appear to lack drive, commitment, enthusiasm or a desire to improve their lot?
(That particular initiative is in trouble, by the way, because there's no longer internet access in the village.)

You're worried about the folks marching in Siofok but you're prepared to listen to the Vajda? To the Vajda, a corrupt ethnobusinessman who is part of the same problem as the mayor I told you about? Someone who's own livelihood and wealth is dependent on the same corrupt institutions that made the mayor rich? Who has every interest in kissing up to the white majority ("a good gypsy, why can't they all be like him?") and dividing the people below him into those he can buy off with patronage and those he'll dismiss as "criminal gypsies."

It's fantastic that you have a mintacigany who will confirm all your prejudices for you.

[Eva S. Balogh]

whoever: "An excellent euphemism for 'tired and emotional' or, as is otherwise depicted, 'drunk as a skunk!'"

If I recall properly he gave two speeches that day. One in the morning which was a run-of-the-mill, ordinary speech. In the afternoon his tone was entirely different. There has been a lot of speculation about what happened in the interim. I don't think he was drunk. There had to be more to it.

[Alias3T]

Longstreet. We don't need Gyurcsany's speech to draw our own conclusions about the culpability of the political class. It's possible to look at the policies and the numbers and then draw one's own conclusions.

Whether it's the thousand thermal baths of the old Szechenyi Plan, the million thermal baths of the new one, it's quite clear that Fidesz didn't and doesn't have a clue what the problems are or what it wants to do about them. Just yesterday, one minister said Hungary needed to up its saving rate (ie. cut salaries, have an internal devaluation), another said Hungary needed to prioritise social provision and raise the money using windfall taxes on telecoms and energy (ie. carry out a pseudo-nationalisation of the economy), while the prime minister said there would be no austerity. Does that look to you like a political class that knows what it's doing?

[Longstreet]

What I am sysing is that these folks DO have state support, opportunities to educate their kids, and it is not the majority's fault that they LACK motivation to use these, and send their kids even to elementary school-. What I am saying is that it is not the majority's fault if the gypsies tolerate their own leaders' corruption without holding accountable, but have instead decided to make revenue by reproducing like rabbits as their only means of support, and expecting the majority to pay for this without posing requirements. What prevents those exploited folks to report the embezzling or whatever charge may be brought up, against the mayor? Whom do they expect to help them, if they themselves are unwilling to act for themselves? How do you call exerting and demanding right without obligation? Why is it, that I don't hear that much of similar break-inns, murders, burglaries committed by similar ill-fated non-gypsies, wherever I look throughout the country or Europe? They are all nazis in your eyes, I trust, so you don't even have to ask yourselves any further questions, or even better, answer some.

[Longstreet]

"Whether it's the thousand thermal baths of the old Szechenyi Plan, the million thermal baths of the new one,"

Rrrrright, and solid factuality ruling here, I see.

"Just yesterday, one minister said Hungary needed to up its saving rate (ie. cut salaries,"

Behold, poor CEO of the National Bank went screaming to Bruxelles about his reduced salary....

"windfall taxes on telecoms and energy (ie. carry out a pseudo-nationalisation of the economy)"

I am so willing to pay profit for those foreign investors that subsidize their own revenure from Hungary, so they can keep low prices at their home country.

[Alias3T]

Longstreet: "What I am saying is that it is not the majority's fault if Longstreet tolerates his own prime minister's [dishonesty, incompetence and corruption] without holding accountable but have instead decided to [put off the inevitable] by [endorsing a policy of racing headlong into the brick wall] as [a way of keeping the punch flowing to the bitter end], and expecting [anybody with any ambition for this country] to pay for this without posing requirements."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Right now, I'm thinking of a very nice gypsy family in a settlement near Ozd. They have one child. She's five and has behavioural difficulties. This may be because, though her mother is desperate for her to get a good education, she has been refusing to go to school because her parents can't afford to buy her new shoes. I don't know what I would do. Would I be tough enough to go to school barefoot? Or would I be proud and say I don't want to be seen living in such abject poverty? Longstreet clearly knows what he would do in those circumstances.

It's hard, with no internet, no phone, no knowledge of the law, and no contact with authority, to start denouncing the only person in 30km who can give you work. It's hard, too, to work out the full extent of your rights and entitlement to state benefits, especially if the attitude of the reluctant social workers you deal with is that your just another criminal gypsy.

Of course, I have no doubt that you, tough-minded Longstreet, would, if dumped into those same circumstances, fight for your rights and destroy the corrupt local potentates with all the tenacity of a Malcolm X. And you'd do that straight after having risen at 5am in the winter to wash your clothes by hand. But not everyone has your pure-minded idealism and courage.

[Paul Haynes]

Ye Gods.

Come back Szilárd, I'm starting to miss you.

[Odins lost eye]

Alias3T you posted a comment to the fact that the Hungarian economy was rushing straight into a brick wall. Yes it is but you have forgotten that Orban Victor is nothing if not a brilliant political manipulator. When Hungary hits the brick wall he knows that Europe will have to bail Hungary out. If the terms of this bailout are not generous enough or restrain the ‘Mighty One’ in any way Europe will be become ‘Public Enemy No 1’. In that scenario you can forget all about the treaties Hungary has entered into it will become a ‘NO Go’ area for Europeans. A new paprika curtain will descend and the children will chant hate slogan against ALL Europeans.

[Odins lost eye]

Paul Haynes – yes I will agree with you. My wife chose Paul Lendvai’s history “The Hungarians – 1000 Years of Victory in Defeat” for me. He can be very caustic about the actions of the leadership (and others).

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Odins lost eye: Paul Lendvai is heavily "oriented", if you understand what I mean, I'd say there are more lies in what he says about Hungary than not.

About respectable historians, I warmly welcome the suggestion to read Ignác Romsics's works.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Szilard: "Paul Lendvai is heavily "oriented", if you understand what I mean, I'd say there are more lies in what he says about Hungary than not."

Your favorite word: "lie." Everybody lies with whom you don't agree concerning Hungary. It seems that you are convinced that you and those who agree with you are the only ones who know the truth. Yet, as it turned out, your knowledge of Hungarian history is scant. For example, you didn't even know the chronology of the Hungarian holocaust.

So, I suggest to be more careful about the use of the word "lie." We didn't say that you "lied" about the dates in 1944. You were just ignorant or mistaken. Wrong facts can give rise to wrong conclusions. But about interpretations of true facts are neither lies nor indisputable truths. They are opinions. In this case Lendvai's opinions are different from yours.

[Longstreet]

"Right now, I'm thinking of a very nice gypsy family in a settlement near Ozd."

Good for you. I am thinking about those 160-180 typically elderly and lonely folks in tzhe countryside whose highly valuable possession of a few hundreds of Forints or a couple of bucketful of potatoes rendered them victims of murder, usually coupled with rape and extreme brutality. And while you shed burning tears for the poor family, maybe you'll have some time to elaborate on our PM's dishonesty, and whatnot.

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Eva: I disagree. (You see, I didn't write that you lie.)
I call it "lie" when someone knowingly claims something untrue. For example, your "interpretation" of Gyurcsány's Őszöd speech, as you demonstrated again a short time ago, is a lie. You very well know that he was not talking about the whole political class in Hungary in general, he instead made direct reference to their own year-and-a-half governance and their two parties. You know it, still you claim the opposite. That's what I don't call a "differing opinion", I call it instead a lie.

As for Paul Lendvai, he repeatedly makes statements that suggest or even directly claim that Hungary is informally ruled by Nazis or neo-Nazis, that paramilitary troops are marching on the streets with the intent of beating up Jews. Paul Lendvai knows very well that this is far from the truth, yet he claims such things. This is again something I call a "lie". He intentionally and habitually does his best to misinform the foreign public about Hungary and he makes a very good living off of it. Maybe you can understand that I'm not a big fan of him.

[Mark]

Pásztor Szilárd: " For example, your "interpretation" of Gyurcsány's Őszöd speech, as you demonstrated again a short time ago, is a lie. You very well know that he was not talking about the whole political class in Hungary in general, he instead made direct reference to their own year-and-a-half governance and their two parties"

Except the problem here is that the evidence for Eva's interpretation is that Gyurcsány himself claimed he was talking about the whole political class. You certainly have a point in arguing that in explaining his speech away in this way he was attempting to evade his own moral responsibility - this would be a fair point. But to argue that Eva is lying, if he is to remain logically coherent, Szilárd has to demonstrate that he has a better idea of what Gyurcsány was thinking about than Gyurcsány himself - and that Eva should know this too. So, unless Szilárd is able to convince us of his telepathic powers, I think I'd be forced to conclude that he is letting his hatred of Gyurcsány interfere with his powers of reasoning.

[Mark]

Pásztor Szilárd: "As for Paul Lendvai, he repeatedly makes statements that suggest or even directly claim that Hungary is informally ruled by Nazis or neo-Nazis, that paramilitary troops are marching on the streets with the intent of beating up Jews. Paul Lendvai knows very well that this is far from the truth, yet he claims such things."

As for informally ruled by neo-Nazis please prove your accusation against Lendvai. I'm not a fan either, but for other reasons, but I've never seen this suggested. And as for the last part, I suppose Szilárd is going to try and argue that the nice people in black uniforms and jackboots I shared a metro plactform with last year were figments of my imagination, and I couldn't possibly have been attacked by the person who did attack me last year who called me "a filthy Jew" (even though, I'm actually not). And if he was sensible and interested in Hungary's reputation overseas, he might conclude that the way to improve it would not be to attack people like Lendvai, but to actually keep some of the lunatic fringe off the streets.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Szilard: "I call it "lie" when someone knowingly claims something untrue. For example, your "interpretation" of Gyurcsány's Őszöd speech"

It is clear that you have problems when it comes to distinguishing between facts and interpretation. On the basis of the whole speech, I simply interpreted of what Gy. wanted to say but didn't say it right.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Szilard: "You very well know that he was not talking about the whole political class in Hungary in general"

How do you know what I know and what not. Your power of logic leaves something to be desired.

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Mark: the picture is very clear here. In his speech to his MP mates (their fraction), Gyurcsány clearly, unambiguously and obviously speaks of and exclusively of themselves, with direct reference to MSZP+SZDSZ. This was the moment where all our doubts were dismissed about Gyurcsány having lied previously or just living in a bizarre dream-world of his. This speech made it clear that he was fully aware of the situation. The context, his sentences before and after this ominous part are in perfect correlation.

It is also completely evident that he claimed a radically different thing after the speech has been leaked out, and ONLY after that. From the non, he lied that he was talking about the whole political class, obviously only to spread out his own responsibility. It was completely unsuccessful, Hungarian public could not be deceived by such transparent lie. Hungarians usually speak Hungarian and it is perfectly adequate and unshakeable to judge the situation.

@Eva: "On the basis of the whole speech, I simply interpreted of what Gy. wanted to say but didn't say it right."

I have read many ridiculous things from you so far but this tops it all.
No, you persistently try to misinterpret and falsify completely obvious sentences and you know all of it: it is called a lie.

[Eva S. Balogh]

Szilard: "No, you persistently try to misinterpret and falsify completely obvious sentences and you know all of it: it is called a lie."

I'm getting very tired of you. One more "lie" and you will "fly."

[Pásztor Szilárd]

What else could you call that?

[Odins lost eye]

Pásztor Szilárd I fear that you are trying to paint a different picture of Hungarian History. In that part of his book that I have read, this is from the earliest days until the arrival on the scene of Szechanyi. Mr Lendvai quotes from external (Non Hungarian sources) as well as Hungarian ones. Certainly he uses some very astringent, sources including Szechanyi himself (whom Lendvai also takes to task). Probably unlike me you did not live through the period you are carping on about and when I come to that part of the story I will judge it from what I saw, heard and experienced from that time. As a 3 year old I watched the ‘circles in the sky’ as the handfuls of Hurricanes and Spitfires took on the might of the Luftwaffe. I saw young men dressed in RAF uniform who could not speak the language of the people around them (they were Poles, Czechs, French etc). These young men flew, fought and died defending a land which was not their homeland and whose people they hardly knew. They seemed to do it willingly! Later on I heard stories told by soldiers home on leave of the horrors they found as the advanced east. Why should they lie? I will judge Mr Lendvai’s words by their similarity to those stories. That great Cartoonist Vicy published in the Daily Mirror a picture of a battered and bandaged ‘Tommy’ handing the world a piece of paper with the word “Peace” on it. The caption said “Here it is, do not lose it”.

[Longstreet]

"What else could you call that?"

Gyurcsányian truth. Or, cognitive dissonance.

[Paul Haynes]

Is Paul Lendvai, by any chance, Jewish?

(Honest question - I have no idea.)

PS - Szilárd, it's good to have you back. Now we've seen what the real right-wing lunatic fringe is like, it was a plesure to see your name pop up again.

[Passing Stranger]

Bah. By your own bizarre standards you are now lying about what Eva has written. You are purposely miscontructing her interpretation into a deliberate falsehood. Therefore, you are a liar.

You could simply say that she is wrong or that you disagree.

[Longstreet]

"I simply interpreted of what Gy. wanted to say but didn't say it right."

Wow, that's something - as even he himself did not know at that time, as he constantly kept on referring to the actions of the innermost ring of his gang (like the Minister for Justice, or the Minister for Finance) to cover up everything, including the hundreds of "little tricks" to deveice the EU, and to keep the public in dark; and how odd, that in his ranting he failed to utter even once someone from the opposition whom he might have thought to be party in this mess, had he ever contemplated what now Eva Balogh decoded to have been the really real truth.

:-DDD

[Alias3T]

Longstreet: I'm fascinated by the 160-180 elderly 'folk' who've been brutally murdered for a few hundred forints or a bucket of potatoes. Over what period? By whom? Some links please? kuruc.info if that's the best you can do.

Szilard: Eva's case is bolstered by the fact that her interpretation is consistent with the facts. The charge sticks. The Hungarian political class has lied about the country's resources and spent money it didn't have to buy votes ever since the regime change. Every government has done it. They bought pensioners with 13th month pensions, and then their opponents offered 14th month pensions as a counterbid. They allowed thousands with fictional disabilities to take early retirement in order to maintain social peace. They said the healthcare system was sustainable and didn't need upfront charges. They said it was possible to double public sector salaries without adverse economic consequences.

Notice I'm not even naming specific parties. They all did it. (And, Longstreet, there's why your PM is dishonest).

So, it would make complete sense for Gyurcsany to level that charge. And it's the charge Gyurcsany said he leveled. Eva's interpretation fits the facts.

[Longstreet]

"I'm fascinated by the 160-180 elderly 'folk' who've been brutally murdered for a few hundred forints or a bucket of potatoes. Over what period? By whom?"

Go to Index/Fórum/Politika/Szereti valaki a cigányokat? Enjoy.

"The Hungarian political class has lied about the country's resources and spent money it didn't have to buy votes ever since the regime change."

As "lying" is a no-no here, let's say that you don't tell the truth. Because Antall, Horn and Orbán had the common sense of NOT to throw away borrowed money for welfare support, but the Medgyessy government (and Gyurcsány as its advisor first, Minister second, and successor third) DID.

[Longstreet]

"So, it would make complete sense for Gyurcsany to level that charge. And it's the charge Gyurcsany said he leveled. Eva's interpretation fits the facts."

The only problem is, that your efforts completely matches Gyurcsány's whitewashers intuitive invention, which is that it was Gyurcsány' intention to incriminate ALL - which he himself did NOT in his own words, only hinted at it afterwards. Too lately, too lamely, and too untruly.

[Longstreet]

Did I fail to notice the sportsmanlike congratulations on behalf of the concerned (self-styled independent-minded) contributors here for the Fidesz winning the municipal elections and most of the Budapest councils big time, or worrying about the prospect of Nazis marching up and down in the country has numbed the senses?

:-D

[Passing Stranger]

I was on Andrassy not long after the Fidesz victory, and did indeed see nazi's marching up and down the street. This was at the swearing in of the new 'gárda'. I was surprised, as I thought Viktor was going to give these guys one or two slaps and send them packing home.

[Passing Stranger]

"Go to Index/Fórum/Politika/Szereti valaki a cigányokat? Enjoy."

All this proves is that bigots post on Internet. Where is your evidence for 160-180 pensioners murdered and raped by gypsies? Or am I to think they are non-existend, as opposed to the very real murders of gypsies by extremists in Hungary several years ago?

[Alias3T]

Longstreet: I ask for evidence and you direct me to an unmoderated public internet discussion forum entitled "Who likes gypsies?"

I'll have a look a bit later on, but in the meantime I congratulate you on your evidentiary standards.

Next time someone asks me for evidence that Fidesz is loopy I'll say. "Go to Hungarian Spectrum and look for posts by Longstreet." That'll show'em.

[Pásztor Szilárd]

For all those who play this little idiotic game of pretending not to understand what the general population's big problem with the majority of Gypsies is, a short message: your resistance is futile.
Your pursuits of this new Babel have been beaten in the 2 elections in the past 2 years. No more rambling on meaning of otherwise obvious words to divert genuine discussion about the real problems. Or, as László Kövér simply but fittingly put it, "mostantól minden baromságról nem nyitunk vitát" ("from now on, we won't start discussions on all kinds of idiotic topics").

[Mark]

Pásztor Szilárd: "For all those who play this little idiotic game of pretending not to understand what the general population's big problem with the majority of Gypsies is, a short message: your resistance is futile."

Unfortunately for Szilárd an issue of principle is at stake here. Europe is constructed on the basis of an idea that all people are born equal, have equal rights, and have the right to be respected as human beings without anyone casting aspersions on their diginity because of their membership of an ethnic (or any other) group. People who don't accept this principle are known as Nazis. The right really ought to think about this if its position is the one Szilárd implies it is, because no-one in western Europe is going to tolerate an institutionally racist state inside the European Union.

Fortunately Szilárd is actually way to the right of Fidesz here, and seems virtually to be speaking as if he were a supporter of Jobbik.He seem unaware of Fidesz's real stance on this issue. After all I think Zoltán Balog's stated position is much closer to mine than to his: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bridging+Hungary's+divide+with+Roma%3A+Zoltan+Balog+to+tackle...-a0228493001

[Longstreet]

"you direct me to an unmoderated public internet discussion forum entitled "Who likes gypsies?"

Number one, it IS moderated; number two, it's got plenty of sources with local news sources (eg. Heves county), page after page with the non-existent Gypsy crime, as your PC world would dictate.

[Passing Stranger]

Longstreet, we can have a discussion about the realities of gypsy crime if you first produce
your evidence for the 160-180 raped and murdered old ladies.

[Longstreet]

"Europe is constructed on the basis of an idea that all people are born equal, have equal rights, and have the right to be respected as human beings without anyone casting aspersions on their diginity because of their membership of an ethnic (or any other) group. People who don't accept this principle are known as Nazis."

Can I just remind you to Katyn, where Communists muredered thousands of Poles, or the English submission of the Irish, for centruries, or the white Anglo-Saxon Americans or Spanish conquistadors against the American natives, or the Turkish massacres of the Armenians, or the Israelis against the Palestinians; none of these were Nazis, yet their crimes were no less inhumane. And yes, equal RIGHT only after if someone accepts the equal RESPONSIBILITY as well. No pick-and-take, unfortunately. Nobody blames the criminals BECAUSE they are Gypsies; however, they do NOT deserve any preferential judgement on the grounds JUST FOR being Gypsies, as propagated earlier by some Liberals, who called the burglaries and murders committed by SOME Gypsies as "livelihood crimes", thus claiming more lenient punishment.

[Longstreet]

"if you first produce your evidence for the 160-180 raped and murdered old ladies."

Right. Go to google, and type in with your flowery little fingers: cigánybűnözés gypsy crime. Or as a starter:

http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/09/gypsy-crime-directory.html

[Mark]

Longstreet: "Can I just remind you to Katyn, where Communists muredered thousands of Poles, or the English submission of the Irish, for centruries, or the white Anglo-Saxon Americans or Spanish conquistadors against the American natives, or the Turkish massacres of the Armenians, or the Israelis against the Palestinians; none of these were Nazis, yet their crimes were no less inhumane."

My dear Longstreet, I've long wanted to teach a class on the comparative history of genocide, political repression and discrimination. When I get the opportunity, you can sign up - I think you would learn a lot from it.

But in your "pyjamas at dawn" rant you've completely missed the point of what I was saying. My point was that you seem not to accept that all human beings are born with equal worth - you believe that there are racial hierarchies based on inherent differences between human beings. The movements in Europe that believe in this and make those assumptions the basis of public policy are called Nazis. You seem to support FIDESZ but you clearly are unaware of what their policy towards Roma is (it is what you term liberalism), as you are one of the people Balog criticizes in the last sentence below. And to save you clicking on the link above I've pasted a bit into here:

"Balog has a multitude of clear concepts for the reintegration of Gypsies into Hungarian society. He regards the dismantling of mutual prejudices and reciprocal familiarisation as extremely important. "We are familiar with the Roma problem, but not with the Roma themselves," Balog pointed out. Including a subject like Roma studies in the school curriculum is worth considering, he said. The excessive fixation of the non-Roma population on Gypsies as criminals also needs to be changed, Balog stressed." (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Bridging+Hungary's+divide+with+Roma%3A+Zoltan+Balog+to+tackle...-a0228493001 )

[Pásztor Szilárd]

@Mark: I don't know if you intentionally misinterpret my writings or they are really so hard to understand but basically all you write is totally gratuitous because they are of some different topic.
If I say that the general population has a big problem with most of the Gypsies, then this means that the general population has a big problem with most of the Gypsies.
You may notice that I haven't mentioned a cause for the problem here, so every such attempt is exclusively your own story.
We can get back to the discussion once you managed to understand the meaning of my message.

[Passing Stranger]

@ Longstreet. I notice that you still haven't shown proof of your claim that gypsies raped and murdered 160-180 pensioners in Hungary. I am sure if this really happened Jobbik would have a list - why don't you share it with us?

[Longstreet]

I notice that you did not bother to click on my previous link. Why don't you make the effort?

[Alias3T]

Yes, it was a list of 30 incidents between 1993 and 2007 where gypsies are alleged to have attacked whites. (The rest of that blog is pretty nasty; I'd prefer a link to an authoritative source).

Given a bit of effort, and a long enough timespan, I could probably give you a list of incidents where monks attacked accountants. It wouldn't follow from that list that there was a plague of monk criminality sapping the lifeblood out of the accountancy profession.

You haven't demonstrated that there is a specific plague of gypsy crime; that gypsy on white crime is out of proportion to white on gypsy crime; that gypsy crime is out of proportion to crime committed by non-gypsies living in comparable levels of poverty. And you certainly haven't found me 160-180 cases of grandmas being raped and murdered by gypsy criminals.

[Longstreet]

http://barikad.hu/node/23785

http://bombagyar.hu/index.php?post=2023

Just surf on the internet, and find the magic word - gypsy crime, list, and enjoy the show.

[Paul Haynes]

"Nobody blames the criminals BECAUSE they are Gypsies; however, they do NOT deserve any preferential judgement on the grounds JUST FOR being Gypsies, as propagated earlier by some Liberals, who called the burglaries and murders committed by SOME Gypsies as "livelihood crimes", thus claiming more lenient punishment."

A wonderful summing up of the way the minds of the exteme right work. Their hatred is so fierce, they can't even see the internal contradictions in their 'logic'.

[Longstreet]

Just find enough code words and charged adjectives, so you never have to bother with the arguments.

[Paul Haynes]

"We are familiar with the Roma problem, but not with the Roma themselves,"

Impressive words. Let's hope that Fidesz can come up with the actions to support them.

But I can't help wondering just how many people who voted Fidesz really see the 'Gypsy Problem' this way.