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« The immediate results of the "nationalization" of private pension funds | Main | Socialist revival in Hungary? »

November 26, 2010

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Comments

Kevin Moore

You had 8 free years to go when your will prevailed, no matter who else wanted what.
Learn to experience the same from the other side.

Thomas

Orbán left parlamentary democracy the day he lost the 2002 elections when he took his claim to power to the streets, SA style. After reading the last two paragraphs of Eva Balogh's post, I am now more convinced than ever that Hungary will not see "normal" national elections again until Orban's death and a general uprising. But that will be slow in coming, because political culture and a participative interest in the res publica is absent in the largest part of the population.

Eva S. Balogh

Thomas: "After reading the last two paragraphs of Eva Balogh's post, I am now more convinced than ever that Hungary will not see "normal" national elections again until Orban's death and a general uprising."

I'm rather pessimistic too. I always smile when I hear LMP or MSZP politicians say that this government will not even last for four years because it is so bad. Bad it may be but it will make sure that it remains in power for a very long time.

kormos

Well…. Good portion of Hungarian People, including the Prime Minister has been taught few good lessons in the past eight years. The pussyfooting of 1998-2002 just cannot continue anymore.
Here is a rather poor English translation of part of the verbal exchange between Gyurcsan and Orban in 2006. Written words just cannot give the proper ambiance of the original happening:
Mr. President, I need a favor here. This is a very silly and untrue campaign statement; that anyone here wants to establish a prescription fee, be so kind to withdraw it. You are a gentleman. No one has said such a thing. But now a campaign is to be built. You cannot take an unjust way to win. These accusations are not true, and it’s not good for the country to win election based on untrue accusations.

I will now tell you, this is not true. You know what? Withdraw this campaign (statement), because it does not do justice……..

There is no more tolerance for this type of sly tactics.
There is no reason to be pessimistic; after all most of the correspondents of this blog live in the West, well shielded from Hungarian hardship, unless there are many Paul Lendvais around.

An

@Kormos: perhaps you have missed something; it is 2010 now, not 2006, and we are discussing the ways the current government is (mis)treating its people not how the former government (mist)treated its people.

Thomas

Eva: It may not even matter, but also rebuilding some sort of opposition seems very difficult because everybody is blind of hatred when any of the socialists are mentioned. Objectively speaking, Gyurcsány is the only political talent, but he would need a totally new party and better communication skills - although he is the only one who can hold a meaningful speech without a piece of paper or a teleprompter. This makes it logical to lock im up soon. This 'government' will face huge problems in one or two years. When the election date nears enough reasons will crop up to postpone the election and/or limit the number of unwanted candidates by all sorts of pseudo-legalistic restrictions. And all will be glorified as the will of the people conquering cumbersome democracy. They "own" the country. In their eyes and those of its followers plans are to keep everything as it just is - forever. They won't let silly things like elections get in their way. But next will be that money can no longer be transferred abroad. I am certain, and it's logical. It's against EU laws, but they'll find a way and make it sound patriotic.

I would be less pessimistic, if I had found more politically interested and politically educated people among the Hungarians I meet.

kormos

Ann: I am not well educated in politics (as per earlier comments from Historians, being one of those undervalued technical persons) and with all respect to you, I believe people elect (forms) the Government. I am very aware of the date. It is/was very clear to me from early on, those hard changes and many more of them needed to balance and improve things after so many decades of domestic gang and foreign exploitation.
We must learn from the past. I do not believe for a moment that this Government wants to mistreat the Hungarian People. Yes, formerly privileged might suffer, but who said life was fair.
The pendulum has finally swung.

Rigó Jancsi

@ kormos: somehow your comments sound like coming directly from fidesz. Either you're Kevin's colleague, or you really believe what you read in Magyar Nemzet, HetiVálasz etc. Please remember that the exploitation by "domestic gangs" includes fidesz and friends, especially during their first term in government. Gyurcsány is not a poor person, but of course, neither is Orbán (anymore).

As for the foreign exploitation, I don't see how companies like the one I work for do anything bad for Hungary, in the contrary. We have currently 4 plants in Hungary and several sales offices for different daughter companies, and alltogether employ well more than 1.500 people. These were no previous Hungarian companies and factories, we build this from scratch. So were is the exploiting? We pay taxes and create work places.

It's the normal life in a democracy that once in a while (or in Hungary usually every time) another party or coalition will form the government. But each government has to be ready to hand over power, when the people decide against them after one or two terms. Orbán showed very undemocratic behaviour after loosing office eight years ago, and he shows even more undemocratic behaviour now. Nothing wrong with this, in case you want to live in a totalitarian state. But I was still under the impression, that Hungary is supposed to be a parliamentary democracy. But democracy and this kind of behaviour are not compatible.

kormos

Liebe Drossel: I am geographically far away from my old Country and FIDESZ, and I have no encounters with Kevin or Szilard. However, I have a good number or friends and relatives in Hungary, in almost all age category and different walks of life. Thus I receive fairly diversified messages. Some of my respected friends manically hate FIDESZ. I agree with you, that FIDESZ must have made mistakes during the first term. Otherwise people would not believe and elect such clown as the “Cicero of the Carpathians”
I do not know any altruistic politicians, so I won’t argue with you about who grabbed more wealth.
I am glad you work for a prudent company, although you forgot to mention the third most important purpose of a company beside paying tax and creating work for people; namely, to create profit.
I agree, the part of my sentence which referred to “past decades of foreign exploitation” could include the past twenty years as well, but (honestly) I did not think of those. The Russian exploitation (not to mention others) is more painful to me.
Although I strongly believe in the idea of “Liberté, égalité, fraternité”, the empty parliamentary crap does not take a Country anywhere.
Yes, (my favourite other Country) Portugal is in deep financial trouble today, due to work of socialist, but Salazar did whip that Country into right order and for a long time.Of course you can call me a fascist, but do I care!?
If Gyurcsany, Lendvai, Lamperth and many others lost some privileges, I would not shed one drop of tears.

Odin's lost eye

Mr Kormos - From the economic point of view one of the greatest fault lines in Hungary (and in countries where Socialism has prevailed for any length of time I include the U.K.) is the total lack of knowledge as to what is a ‘Joint Stock Company’ and how it works. The Hungarian business man regards his shareholders money as his own (to be skimmed off as quickly as possible). The Socialists (and Fidesz) can only think of is ‘Foreign Investment’. This gives rise to the ideas of ‘Foreign Exploitation’.

Local investments sources are discouraged by Government interference, the demands of corrupt ‘Local Authorities’ and the belief that Governments can run businesses better that real entrepreneurs. The ideas of ‘Public Ownership’ really means nothing less than ‘Governmental/Ministerial’ control. These people always want the Maximum profit (to spend on their pet schemes) from Government run companies. That is why these companies always atrophy and become obsolete.

Dr Salazar always had a feeling that he was being watched. Your second favourite country has a foreign friend who seldom interferes until needed, but who always seems to be there.

kormos

The sad fact is, that I must agree with Odin's comment above.

David

Odin, in other words the average Hungarian understanding of capitalism is broadly in line of what communist propaganda portrayed it to be.

There might be something in what you say. There does seem to be an obsession with the idea that company profit can only come about by the exploitation of others. Business is often conceptualised as ripping off the customer rather than providing a quality service and building up an advantageous business relationship.

This is why a lot of supposedly right wing Hungarian analysis seems to be pretty much Marxism-lite.

Eva S. Balogh

David, you put the finger on the problem. The same problem exists when it comes to the principles of democracy and in the last twenty years, governments did very little about enlightening the people.

Kevin Moore

It is totally pathetic that practically noone among you is able to take a pro-Fidesz comment as-is, you must immediately stigmatize the person a Fidesz propagandist.

You never learn to imagine that there are many many many many persons in this world who simply do not share your wicked perception of a false reality where all 'facts' and origins are defined by you and you alone.
You think you are entitled to define what democracy is, what the rule of law is, and how Europe should react to your total misinterpretation of the Orbán government's deeds.

And then it's no wonder you never cease to sit there having no idea of what is happening and how all this can happen.

Kevin Moore

Yes it's true that democratic behavior is far from being rooted in the average Hungarian voter's thinking.
Were it to be, Gyurcsány couldn't have stayed in power after the Őszöd speech for one single day.

Paul

'Kevin' - I know English isn't your first language, but I am getting very tired of having to point out that 'no one' is written thus, not as 'nooone'.

It's almost as if you don't read other people's posts.

Joe Simon

It is really odd and somewhat perverse to hear the Spectrum preaching about democracy, admonishing Hungary at every turn when we have this enormous diplomatic embarassment of the USA going on. Yes, people will be punished who leaked the documents but not those diplomats who sent back those silly and supercilious comments and observation about world leaders. What does this clumsy, rude and 'otromba' practice say about American democracy. Would Eva, living in her Ivory Tower as she does, put aside her vitriolic pen and comment on this highly uncivilized practice of for example, spying on friendly countries?

Kevin Moore

Joe Simon: as long as Orbán can't be depicted as negatively involved, I don't think our "favourite" author will waste a word on the topic you mentioned.

Joe Simon

Also, I am greatly concerned that the Hungarian Spectrum's integrity will be comromised if Eva is getting all her information about Hungary from those leaked and discredited diplomatic documents. Canada is mentioned almost three thousand times. No doubt Hungary is also unfairly targeted.

Paul

Which hand is 'Kevin' and which is 'Jo'?

Joe Simon

WEll now, Eva is 'pessimistic' about Hungarian democracy. You spend far too much time on people like Polt or Matolcsy. I assure few people in Canada for example know or care who the foreign minister or justice minister is. It is a given that they are picked by the Prime Minister. You remember Cond. Rice? Have you ever seen a more ineffectual and silly secretary of state, a sidekick to Bush. Donald Trump always made fun of her: she waves and smiles. That is just about the extent of her achievement. Look at the state of American diplomacy and the quality of diplomats serving in foreign embassies. Should you not be also 'pessimistic' about the state of American democracy? Spectrum is often sanctimonious, making divine pronuncements but removed far away from the real state of affairs. I always picture Eva sitting under a mango tree dispensing justice and advice to poor natives, in this case Hungarians back home.

OpenDog

Joe, your a dick.

John T

Joe - two wrongs don't make a right. The point is, we all deserve better than this from elected officials and public servants.

Joe Simon

Look, most writings here on the Blog are well researched and scholarly. But Spectrum is not the only and sole custodian of Hungarian democracy. Too much negativism and and bleeding-heart 'pessimism' is coming through. People back in our native land are educated enough to judge as to what is going on. We should not underestimate them. FIDESZ is still popular, even increasing its support. Let us trust our fellow Hungarians to safeguard their hardly-won freedom.

John T

Joe - I don't think this blog has ever suggested it is - but to me, looking out but with family and friends who i want to see thrive and be prosperous, there isn't much to be optimistic about at the moment. I hope that changes. But I'm also looking at the country through "western eyes" - it may be that Hungarians are happy to give up their freedoms for a different type of society, even if it is effectively another form of Kadarism. I'd be disappointed if they do, as freedoms, once lost are very hard to get back. But if thats their choice, then so be it.

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