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« Historical maps of Hungary | Main | A new opinion poll about the media law »

January 28, 2011

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Paul

Interesting stuff, Éva, but I'm particularly intrigued by your last point - that "Hungary's most natural ally in my opinion would have been Romania".

Could you expand upon this please?

Everything I've read has left me with the impression that Romania was actually Hungary's greatest threat (although perhaps this is history in hindsight?).

Left to their own devices, I'm sure they would have moved the new border considerably further west. In at least one history, there's a claim that they wanted the border to run so that Debrecen would have been Romanian.

And, while I'm at it, how did Austria get away with expanding their territory? Apparently the only instance, at least in recent European history, of a defeated country actually gaining territory!

Kirsten

Éva, thank you very much for writing it from that perspective. I think that in the eyes of the other nations in the Empire, with the Compromise in 1867 Hungary lost its status of an oppressed nation. (Trialism was not introduced.) That was probably not the interpretation of the "Party of Independence" but the principle of "self-determination" actually applied may perhaps be understood as "self-determination of the formerly oppressed", to which a nation that gave the empire half of the name could not be counted. (Some kind of "revenge" for the Compromise...)

Odin's lost eye

Just a thought. Part of the price for Romania's joining the 'Western powers' against the 'Central powers' -Germany etc- was that they would acquire the 4 eastern provinces (what ever they were) of Hungary

 Eva S. Balogh

Addition to Odin's remarks. Without going into the details which territories were promised in exchange for declaring war on the Central Powers, they had been far greater than actually Romania received at the end. The Romanians claimed the whole of Banat that eventually was given to Serbia. The border between Romania and Hungary would have been somewhere at the line of the Tisza River.

However, there was a caveat in that treaty. The treaty's stipulations became null and void if Romania signed a separate peace. In 1918, after even Bucharest was occupied by the Germans, Romania signed a separate peace (The Treaty of Bucharest of 1918). So, a couple of days before the war ended Romania declared war again in order to be able to be among the victors. The Great Powers overlooked this fact mostly because the Romanians lost about 100,000 people in their short war against the Central Powers.

 Eva S. Balogh

Paul: "Interesting stuff, Éva, but I'm particularly intrigued by your last point - that "Hungary's most natural ally in my opinion would have been Romania". Could you expand upon this please?"

I already mentioned that it made sense from the Hungarian point of view to have friendly relations with the country which had the largest Hungarian minority. Second, the Hungarian and Romanian language groups are sitting in a great sea of Slavic speakers from Poland to Greece. Pan-Slavism was always feared by these two countries. The fear that somehow the "Slavic brothers" would try to gobble up these two strangers. Third, the Romanian royal house was of German origin and for many years Romania was conducting a pro-German, pro-Austro-Hungarian foreign policy. Fourth, although Transylvania had a Romanian majority, Transylvanian Romanian culture, political as well as literary or artistic, was different from that of the Regat (the old kingdom). Thus Transylvania could be a kind of bridge between Budapest and Bucharest.

The Romanians who approached the Hungarian politicians in Budapest were talking about forming a Romanian-Hungarian dual monarchy with the Romanian king as head of state. They also wanted to exclude the Great Powers to some extent from decisions concerning the borders. Instead they kept talking about direct negotiations. In a way I understand why the Hungarians said no to this at that point. The country's capital was under Romanian occupation. Under such circumstances it would have been very difficult to come up with a border that wouldn't have favored Romania.

What the Hungarians could have done was to postpone negotiations while upholding the possibility of some kind of closer relationship between the two countries in the future. Instead the they put forth such demands that precluded the continuation of talks.

Paul

Some good points there, Éva, but I'm not entirely convinced.

I take your 'strangers' surrounded by Slavs point, but in no other way can the Hungarian and Romanian languages be said to have much in common.

There's also the question of how Hungary saw itself - essentially as the easternmost part of the west. Whereas Romania was regarded an eastern land of barbarians. Even Transylvania, revered as it was/is as the 'heart' of Hungarian folk culture, language, etc, was (is) thought of as a pretty backward place.

And, as you say, the fact that the Romanians seemed to take every opportunity to invade Hungary wouldn't exactly have helped anyone trying to push a pro-Romanian viewpoint.

Hungarians could (and did) cope with playing second-fiddle to a country they secretly looked up to and envied, but no way could they have seriously contemplated a similar arrangement with a country they looked down upon.

(But I'm not a historian, so go easy on me!)

Le Meow

"In 1918, after even Bucharest was occupied by the Germans, Romania signed a separate peace (The Treaty of Bucharest of 1918)."

Eva, the treaty of Bucharest was not signed by King Ferdinand, which means that it was not valid - at least not in Romania. This is why it was not a problem (legally) to have it denounced by Marghiloman five months later.

 Eva S. Balogh

Le Meow: "Eva, the treaty of Bucharest was not signed by King Ferdinand, which means that it was not valid - at least not in Romania."

The whole question of the Treaty of Bucharest of 1918 is still problematic. If it wasn't valid because Ferdinand refused to sign it, why did Romania declare war against the Central Powers again? Most likely because by international law it was considered to be valid.

Mark

Corect is "Kingdom Hungary and Croatia"

Mark

1102. Document "PAKTA CONVENTA" = (PERSONAL UNION KINGDOM CROATIA AND KINGDOM HUNGARY)

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