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« Viktor Orbán and the Sándor Palace | Main | The newest plan named after a former finance minister and prime minister »

February 28, 2011

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late night

You fail to point out, the Republicans are, who made this method of politics comme il faut again. There are many countries, where "populists" now copy the Republicans and are considered modern, good Westerners. Probably Orban can only fail, if the Rep-s fail before, otherwise he remains "a good Westerner".

56-71 Bad times

I am speechless.
It is not necessary to concentrate on Orban.
The rest of the leadership is also weak.
Such nobrainers reach the top only by major corruption.

But the supporters are not less brainless.

My advice to the few smart Fideszes: Leave and Restore Your Credibility.

Vidra

The main point of similarity, to me, is that Orbán appointed himself as the only man who could leave his country out of the mess.

Hungary wasn't the same basket-case as post-WW1 Italy or post-Crash Germany, or even the PIGS group within the EU, but OV had to turn this into a moral panic, as opposed to just a political problem, so he could brand Gyurcsány et al as "criminals" and once again be the man on the white horse.

Hitler and Mussolini had domestic big business on their sides and the church and international commentators and the church were generally either sympathtic or refrained from comment.

Demonising Orbán, by seeing parallels between him and Europe's Worst 20th Century Dictators, suggests that his moral panic-mongering has worked.

someone

I agree wit the parallels, as I can seen the similarities for a while. Of course there will be those, who will say that there will be no such outcome as for those historical madmen, and I agree, but not because of Orban's ambitions are any less. Certain countries became more sophisticated then others since WWII, and they are able to provide enough pressure on megalomaniacs to keep them semi-tied. I do not think they would do that in order to save the Hungarians in general, but in order to assure that such nonsense would not effect them politically or economically. As Hungary is a member of the EU there is also a sense of responsibility for keeping countries (how shall I say) European and civilized. Europe already witnessed the madness of Bosnia, and I do not think they want even the hint of possibility of an other "war".

Johnny Boy

You are seeing Orbán unleash war in your sick vision, but that only tells of you. Pathological.

someone

Johnny Boy: He does not stop any nationalistic cravings at all, creates a deeper divide between people with different political point of views, supports a witch hunt for his "enemies", clips the power of Constitutional Court, denies facts, creates retroactive measures wit time limit that protects his busy buddies, tries to move himself into the Castle (literally), stuff every important positions with is busy buddies, tries to control incoming news to Hungary even from the foreign media. Who is pathological?

Johnny Boy

You.

Johnny Boy

A little explanation:
"clips the power of Constitutional Court"
This is the only statement in your list that is true.

Vidra

Johnny Boy, when you grow up to become Johnny Man you'll realise that what you or I think of OV as a person, or what those you disagree with write about him, simply doesn't matter. It's just the same with football teams and pop stars and whatever else you discuss in your rest breaks at the call center.

Try putting a list together of Orbán's concrete achievements so far to improve the job security and standard of life of ordinary Hungarians, because that's how history will judge him. Me, I have a blank sheet of paper.

Odin's lost eye

What ‘SK’ is doing is analysing the career to date of one demagogue with the history of others, or as S.K. puts it * “There is scarcely any need to recount all the similarities easily detected in the techniques used by Viktor Orbán and Fidesz in their takeover of the Hungarian Republic” * So ‘Shwny bach’ ‘Shut up’ as a ‘Cardiff Mate’ would say

He came into power by constitutional means and then immediately declared war on the constitution. He did this because it does not guarantee him and his crony’s eternal power.

He is a viscous little ‘son of a gun’ when speaking about his election defeat in 2002 it is said that he commented that he was not ‘harsh enough with the people’. This alone shows that he thinks that he and he alone has a sacred mission to rule ALL Hungarians. What I fear he will do is establish the old Hungarian ruler’s favourite a ‘Reign of Terror’ to crush even the word dissent. You can see this starting in the new parliamentary subcommittee mentioned in a previous contribution entitled “A new subcommittee: criminal politicians and the sovereign debt?”- This and his mate Péter Szijjártó who at some point will also have to have an ’accident’ –in case he becomes too powerful- are the ‘new AVO’.

I do not think he yet realises just how weak his position really is as S.K. says * “And the “leakage” works both ways: inbound influences and outbound leaks and embarrassments weaken the grip of the Fidesz”. The Chinese realised this long ago and have attempted to stop those leaks, which as we have seen have toppled or nearly toppled entrenched dictatorships on the Arab world.

So far he has not been able to slap Ferenc Gyurcsány in the ‘brig’ but he will go on trying. He fears Gyurcsány and if he cannot jail him there may have to be an ‘accident’, but Gyurcsány is, to some extent, a protected species.

How will it all end? That is the 64 Megahuf question. He has a big problem which I hope will be his nemesis. It is Europe. His problems with the Media laws are only the beginning. Europe is now watching his every move and will probably not be as benign as in the past. The warnings will now all be ‘Public Warnings’ and the European Court is sharpening its knives.
I do not foresee any foreign military adventures the Honved knows only too welln the power of NATO. He might start some sort of murderous insurgency on the lines of the IRA in Slovakia, Romania and Serbia, but I do not think it will work and the fall out would be huge.

someone

Johnny Boy: bahahaha I fell sorry for you. When you run out proof, reason and logic you try to get into name calling, like a five years old. You are immature and not worthy to get into discussion as you do not know how to discuss (just like Orban). Case closed.

Kirsten

As I wrote already I find these comparisons with the fascist and Nazi regimes of the 1920s-1940s rather difficult. I know that some themes such as the Trianon treaty or some groups such as the Hungarian Guard easily provoke such comparisons. But as Vidra also writes, it is demonising OV without offering any way out (OV has bewitched the Hungarian people and it cannot but let him rule). To me the more suitable framework for thinking about what happens in Hungary are transition processes from authoritarian rule to democratic rule and why these (quite often) already have failed on the way resulting in some hybrid system. That has not happened only before WWII but can occur also in contemporary states alongside 21st century "modernity". It also offers some positive prospects because the "culprits" lie in mundane facts such as vested interests of particular groups, a low power of some fundamental institutions such as the judicial system and a too passive (in general) electorate.

Mutt Damon

@S.K. "inevitable resistance similar in magnitude"

There is this vacuum today in politics. I mean without the FIDESZ it is a vacuum. As ugly as they are, they are the only party with acceptable pedigree. This is their luck. The nature of the vacuum is basically total apathy: the loss of trust in the government and in the politicians in general. No reason to change. I'm wondering if OV intentionally let's his cronies running wild to keep this feeling up in the population. I know, it's a twisted logic, but hey, this Planet Hungary.

 Eva S. Balogh

Mutt Damon: "The nature of the vacuum is basically total apathy"

A friend of mine who goes to Hungary quite often and just spent a week there reports this total apathy. People don't want to even think about politics. And I'm talking here about liberals. But just wait until it is too late to wake up.

freedom of ferenc deak

I am dreaming of anti-gadaffi demonstrations, applied against the corrupt and empty orbanka, and his clique.

The reaction will reveal the ugliness of the direct and indirect orban supporters.

Pete H.

OK, Orban bad guy. Got your point. But do we really have to compare him to some of histories worst dictators. Rulers who collectively murdered millions. You lose credibility by making these comparisons. It's also a lazy rhetorical technique.

Even some teenagers have the sense to see the weakness of this type of political argumentation. http://teenlife.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/10886/comparing-polititians-to-hitler-by-andrew-santarini/

You could have written a great piece of political commentary without having to invoke mass murderers to make your point. When you do, you lose much of your audience. Forget trying to build bridges to those who may be reconsidering their support of OV. And I'm sure even many of those who support your POV cringe when they read this piece.

I hope we don't have to suffer much more of this type of writing here at Hungarian Spectrum. If we do, I will start to feel embarrassed for ever commenting here and for having thought this was a serious intellectual venue.

Johnny Boy

Pete H: I'm suprised that the general, extremely low standard hate speech going on persistently on this site has not bothered you up until now.

Jano

Pete H.: Very very well put, exactly what I think of this triple feature. This might be amusing for people who compete with who can come up with the most diabolic description about OV but is highly repulsive for people who are not fanatic ortodox Orbán haters. (To give you a comparable example, it's exactly the style of the Magyar Vizsla before the 2006 elections)

in the name of the unity of the Hungarians

Pete H was offended by the comparison of Orban to Mussolini.

Is Orban deserving any defense?

He is a slippery demagogue. Close or almost as bad as the sick Mussolini.

Paul

The third, and hopefully last contribution from SK. This rubbish is way below the standard we expect from HS and is damaging its reputation as a blog worth reading.

The last paragraph alone clearly shows that SK is entirely out of touch with Hungarian society and recent political history - not to mention reality.

No more of this, please.

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