I once listed the atrocities committed against the Roma, including the murder of several people during 2008 and 2009. After a long and arduous manhunt the police eventually found the alleged culprits. Four are accused of the murders: the brothers Árpád and István Kiss, Zsolt Pető, and István Csontos. The indictment, which is 90 pages long and which was read aloud in the courtroom (a rather peculiar aspect of the Hungarian justice system), outlines how these four men ended up killing six people, including a child.
It was in 2007 that the Kiss brothers began to think about attacking Gypsies in order "to change the course of events." They were dissatisfied with the government's attitude toward "Gypsy crime" and were hoping that perhaps as a result of a series of attacks they would be able to spark a general "civil war" against the Roma minority. The brothers first joined the Hungarian Guard and were among those who in 2006 were initiated into the organization right in front of the Sándor Palota, the official residence of the president. However, they soon decided that the Hungarian Guard offered no real solution to the "Roma problem." They would have to take things into their own hands.
They paid special attention to media reports of clashes between Gypsies and non-Gypsies and decided to target those villages where there was some "trouble." They needed weapons, and the easiest path to getting hold of guns was burglary. This crime was committed by four men, but the identity of the fourth is still not known. Zsolt Pető then managed to get ammunition through one of his "contacts." Again, it seems that the police were unable to find the "contact." Rather poor, I would say, but then I'm no detective.
The initial crew of three decided on the first attack, which took place in Galgagyörk, after they saw on TV news that there was some unpleasantness between one particular Roma family and the rest of the village. The three went to the village to find the house of that particular family, but they couldn't locate it. So they picked another house in which they suspected Gypsies lived. Several shots were fired but no one was injured and therefore the event didn't cause the hoped-for results.
The next village was Piricse where they used Molotov cocktails to set a house on fire. When a woman stepped out of the house they shot at her twice. She was injured only in the leg. Then they attacked the house of a large Roma family in Nyíradony, but again no one was injured and the news didn't hit big. Finally they attacked two houses in Tarnabod but their intelligence was faulty. The inhabitants of the two houses were not Gypsies. Again, no one was injured.
Then came the first murder in Nagycsécs. By that time the three men had changed tactics. It was no longer necessary to have reported clashes in a village. They picked villages where the Roma population lived in blocs that could easily be identified. Here they were "successful." They killed a man and a woman, both Roma. Then came the "big bang" at Tatárszentgyörgy where they burned down a house with Molotov cocktails and subsequently killed a young man and his five-year-old child.
In Tiszalök the Kiss brothers asked the fourth accused, István Csontos, to assist in their attack on another Gypsy family. István Csontos was supposed to be the driver. Here they killed a young man who was just leaving his house to go to work. He died instantly.
Their last "mission" took place in Kisléta, where all four accused were present: the Kiss brothers, Zsolt Pető, and István Csontos. Here they killed a widow and wounded her young daughter very badly.
The alleged murderers made extensive use of the Internet. For instance, they looked online for a person who might have registered weapons at home. The areas they targeted were thoroughly studied on satellite photos. The plans were executed with military precision (though initially they were not exactly sharpshooters). They were careful not to use their own cell phones. In brief, they knew what they were doing.
While the investigation was going on there was a lot of speculation about the background of István Csontos, who at one point worked for military counter-intelligence. Magyar Nemzet in particular spent time on Csontos's military background, but the summary of the indictment by Origo says very little about Csontos. It is possible that Magyar Nemzet's preoccupation with Csontos's military background was motivated by political considerations.
In any case, for the time being at least it looks as if the police didn't make a mistake this time and that the real culprits will be standing trial. The trial will be long. Thirty-four sessions are planned; 160 witnesses will testify and 30 experts will be questioned.
The amazing thing about this whole case is the state of mind of these men. They seemed to have truly believed that a series of murders would spark a general uprising against the Gypsy minority. Admittedly, about 85% of Hungarians have anti-Gypsy prejudices, but very few Hungarians would go so far as to grab weapons and massacre them.
The lawyers for the accused argue that the indictment is not thorough enough and suspect that the police put together a case that is coherent only on the surface under the pressure of public opinion. As always, it is possible that this will not be an open and shut case. For me the fact that the police couldn't find at least two people who in one way or the other can be connected to the case is troublesome.
Does this mean the government will now take steps to do something about 'white crime'?
Or perhaps Jobbik will ask the Guard to protect the Roma against 'Hungarian crime'?
"but very few Hungarians would go so far as to grab weapons and massacre them." Possibly, but plenty would vote for the Roma to be moved to 'settlements' or some other such 'solution'.
Posted by: Paul | March 30, 2011 at 04:18 PM
There are roughly 1 million Roma in Hungary, this would be 10% of the population. If 85% have anti-Gypsy prejudices, this leaves only 5% that have common sense? Unless, of course, Roma have prejudices against themselves.
Posted by: Rigó Jancsi | March 30, 2011 at 04:35 PM
"The amazing thing about this whole case is the state of mind of these men. They seemed to have truly believed that a series of murders would spark a general uprising against the Gypsy minority."
Exactly. They were also stupid enough to kill people who didn't even fit the stereotypical gypsy profile.... At least if they killed some crime lord or an "uzsorás" (I don't know the proper English term).
Rigó Jancsi: I wouldn't exactly trust those statistics. I was once interviewed and asked the question:
"Do you think the Romas are criminals?"
I answered something like that as far as I've heard the ratio of Romas with a criminal record is very high. He checked yes so I guess I'm in the 85%...
Finally, I worked for a month on a food market when I was in high school and one of my striking memories is when I realized how much hatred there was in my gypsy co-workers (By the way, most of them HATE the word Roma. I said that once, they laughed at me and made fun of me for days) towards the other gypsies. I was naive and didn't understand that until one of them explained to me how much he hates being judged based on how others are behaving. I wasn't racist before, but ever since then I pay double-triple-quadruple attention to only judge individuals.
Posted by: Jano | March 30, 2011 at 10:03 PM
"At least if they killed some crime lord or an "uzsorás" " - Of course, I didn't mean that killing anybody would be okay. I hope you understand what I meant.
Posted by: Jano | March 30, 2011 at 10:05 PM
@Jano: My comment was more rethorical. I was imagining that behind the staggering 85% something like your explanation would come up. "Prejudice" is a very broad description, and generalisations are never very clever when it comes to people.
Having said that, I have to admit that I'm not free of prejudices either. Once driving through Mátraverebély, on the Vasút utca I had the feeling of being in another country. Houses were little better than ruins, there were a lot of children in ragged clothes running around, people sitting or standing on the street and staring at my car. It was a strange feeling, most likely fuelled by all stories I had heard about Gypsies since I came to Hungary. I was morbidly faszinated how people still live like this in a country of the European Union. And I know that Mátraverebély is not the worst. Meanwhile, good Christians pass by this sight on their way to the famous pilgrim's chapel of Szentkút in the forest and forget about their grace of charity for a few minutes.
Posted by: Rigó Jancsi | March 31, 2011 at 01:15 AM
Dear Eva,
I have a personal request. Would you please translate /I would do that part but I suspect you prefer your own/ AND publish on your site the following letter by Berki Judit?
http://www.nol.hu/belfold/_cigany_vagyok__oruletesek_a_mindennapok_
That is if such action is not against the rules._
Same text can be found in a bit more dramatized way as published by Tamas B. Kiss on facebook.
I just talked with Judit; you can find her on facebook.
Thanks,
Peter
Posted by: peter litvanyi | March 31, 2011 at 03:09 AM
Off topic: Ron posted the following link in an other thread, but it is worth for consideration. List of "mistakes", and omissions in the proposed new constitution submitted by Fidesz to the EU. http://tasz.hu/files/tasz/imce/list_of_all_the_omissions_and_mistranslations.pdf
Posted by: someone | March 31, 2011 at 08:21 AM
Where are the Fidesz trolls? I am certain they can make a valuable contribution to this abominable topic.
Posted by: Minusio | March 31, 2011 at 01:59 PM
@Rigo: "Having said that, I have to admit that I'm not free of prejudices either. Once driving through Mátraverebély, on the Vasút utca I had the feeling of being in another country."
I am afraid that people are in general not free of prejudices (Europe is full of stereotypes of which nation is what or not) but for me the question is how seriously one takes such generalisation. Does the sorry state of Mátraverebély mean that all people living there are responsible for it, or that all Roma living in Hungary are either responsible for it or creating an equally amiable environment in their own cities (apparently not if this place is particularly problematic and the Roma population is 10 %) or that all Hungarians are responsible for it because they are unable to offer Roma a better living in Hungary etc. These "prejudices" are a problem not because they would not fit for some individuals (the photograph shown by Éva the other day of the group at the Szalasi memorial could also be taken as a "proof" of that all Hungarians are fascists) but because a relatively smaller group of people is taken as representative of a larger group of people that do not share these characteristics, at least not in this pointed manner. So having "prejudices" in some cases does not seem to be a big problem for me as long as this does not lead to generalisations that either are pure insults or cement the problem.
Posted by: Kirsten | March 31, 2011 at 02:55 PM
The racism is on both sides here - I've heard Roma openly make racist remarks about Hungarians too.
In order to deal with the issue of ensuring the Roma are fully able to be part of and particpate fully in society, it needs Hungarians to accept them, but the Roma to be willing to be accepted, if that makes sense. To me education is the key, on both sides, but more so to start getting large numbers of Roma into good jobs and universities and increase their presence in the middle class.
Having written this, the daft thing is that we have to talk about two groups, when everyone is of course Hungarian.
Posted by: John T | March 31, 2011 at 04:15 PM
Hungarian king Ladislaus I created pretty tough laws. Our glorious predecessors, 150 years after settling down in the Carpathian basin still didn't appreciate enough the importance of the private property. You got hanged for theft in general but for a petty theft like stealing wood or a chicken you may have gotten away with loosing an eye or two or a limb. But it was worth it. In the 21st century we Hungarians are standing tall morally ...
Now the gipsies ... First we need to make sure that all laws apply to everybody equally. Doesn't matter what is your skin color. Crime = Prison. Also whoever who tries to hurt anybody, gipsy or magyar, should be put behind bars. Like these monsters should get life if you ask me. These laws should be maintained even if we have to build more prisons or beef up law enforcement (that will entertrain the Hungarian equivalents of the ACLU for a long time).
I have the terrible feeling that the gipsies will go through the same process in many ways as the blacks in the US. From the lynching and segregation to the civil rights movements. And perhaps one day a gipsy prime minister ...
Posted by: Mutt Damon | March 31, 2011 at 05:26 PM
Mutt: "I have the terrible feeling that the gipsies will go through the same process in many ways as the blacks in the US" - I think there is a huge difference between the blacks in the US and the gypsies in Hungary or any other eastern european country (just check the latest news about the Roma situation in the Czech Republic). The former is the meanest and ugliest kind of racism based on the belief of racial superiority which is rooted deeply in the slaver history of the US. In turn the hatred against gypsies is an experience and mostly fear based racism (of course it is still unacceptable to extend your experiences with a part of a group to the whole group).
It is my firm belief that if through education and employment policy we could somehow get the "they are working just like us". picture to be the general perception (and to be a general phenomenon) then we would be able to win this one (how easy it sounds doesn't it:) ). The basis of this belief is that the gypsy colleagues I had the fortune to work with were almost always one of the most respected workforce (since to fight prejudice they usually worked twice as hard) and even my pretty racist colleagues were just commenting "I wish all of them were like that").
Kirsten: "So having "prejudices" in some cases does not seem to be a big problem for me as long as this does not lead to generalisations that either are pure insults or cement the problem."
Very well put. There's nothing wrong with prejudice as long as it is nothing for an individual to convince you otherwise. (Think about your social prejudices!)
"but because a relatively smaller group of people is taken as representative of a larger group of people that do not share these characteristics" - even if 70% share this characteristic, there is absolutely no reason to hate the other 30% too.
Posted by: Jano | March 31, 2011 at 08:49 PM
@Jano I believe racism, and basically homophobia, xenophobia and all the 'phobias' for that matter, are always "fear based". The imagined fear of raping your daughter, taking you jobs, stealing your chicken or the fear from "gee, I don't exactly what, but they are different". I don't believe there is "fear based racism". I think there is only one thing: discrimination.
The situation in Hungary, the 'gipsy question', is getting more and more similar to the racial segregation era in the US after the slavery was abolished. I think we are not far from the Jim Crow laws in Hungary, especially if the FIDESZ blows it very badly and the Jobbik will take over.
Don't we wish back the Kadar era's mild racism? As the genius Geza Hofi said:
"Hát most tényleg, vegyünk mindnek hegedűt? Mert lapát meg nem köll mindegyiknek .."
("Come on, we can't buy a violin to all of them? 'Cuz they not all of them want a shovel ..")
Posted by: Mutt Damon | March 31, 2011 at 09:42 PM
Mutt: I don't agree, I don't think the American racists (especially earlier in this century) were afraid of blacks. They just simply thought that they were no more than animals. We are very very far from the Jim Crow laws.
"I think there is only one thing: discrimination. " - This sounds great, but is very naive and a great oversimplification of the problem.
Eva: I've tried to do some research but with the limited time and resources I could not say anything conclusive. What is the history of the Roma population and the their friction with the majority of the population in Hungary? All I know is that the the reason they accumulated in Eastern Europe is that they were not allowed to travel to the West (which was installed either by Marie Theresa or Joseph II).
Posted by: Jano | March 31, 2011 at 10:50 PM
Jano. About the history of the Roma see among other things wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
Although there was always some crimes in the past it was not as bad as it is now. Basically, the second WW and the forced assimilation of these people resulted in total destruction of organization structure of their society.
How it use to be you can see in the UK and Ireland. A half year ago there were some interesting documentories about Gypsy weddings on TV.
http://www.youtubedocumentaries.com/documentary.cfm?name=My_Big_Fat_Gypsy_Wedding
Posted by: Ron | April 01, 2011 at 12:39 AM
"They just simply thought that they were no more than animals."
This is exactly how my wife and her family think of Gypsies.
The Hungarian word for 'gypsy', cigány, originates from the Romainan word for 'gypsy', tigani, which, in Romanian meant 'slave'. The Roma were liberated in 1856, before that they were literally slaves - owned and used like animals - with the same rights (or lack of them) as the slaves in the southern USA.
Posted by: Paul | April 01, 2011 at 06:53 AM
In the matter of this trial which is what I will focus on, I want to see is: -
1. The prosecution evidence is clearly, concisely, and presented in its entirety. Nothing must be hidden even if it weakens the case for the prosecution.
2. That the evidence is closely and stringently cross examined by BOTH the defence council and where necessary by the judge. I do not want to see a cleaver ‘Legal Eagle’ confusing a simple witness with long words or tricky argument. Of course both sides may examine the attitudes and motives of the witnesses to test the truth of the evidence.
3. That the verdict will be ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’ and where there is doubt then the judge must give the benefit of that doubt to the defendants and must say so publically. This must be done because the liberty of the defendants is at stake.
4. There must be NO valid legal grounds for an appeal against the verdict.
Justice must not only be done it must be seen to be done and in such a way that even the most bigoted will have to admit the verdict was real, true and proper.
As to the punishment –if any- this must be in accordance with the law and the judge who imposes it must explain clearly any extenuating circumstances that have been taken into account.
If I see the slightest ‘jiggery-pokery’ I for one will yell ‘stinking fish!’.
Posted by: Odin's lost eye | April 01, 2011 at 06:55 AM
Mutt Damon: "As the genius Geza Hofi said: "Hát most tényleg, vegyünk mindnek hegedűt? Mert lapát meg nem köll mindegyiknek .." ("Come on, we can't buy a a violin to all of them? 'Cuz they not all of them want a shovel ..")
Did he really say that?
Posted by: Eva S. Balogh | April 01, 2011 at 07:03 AM
Jano: "I don't think the American racists (especially earlier in this century) were afraid of blacks." THey were.
I have been very fortunate to work on a documentary, where we had plenty of interviews with black musicians (blues) who started their career in the jim crow era. The stories we have heard strike a chord with current Hungarian attitudes. Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is based on the common hysteria and fear fueled by racial prejudice (as you pointed out). "Lock you daughters, as the black man will come and rape the white girls (as no white man would commit such crime)"
(By the way that book should be a must read in every Hungarian classrooms. THe book was ranked as the number one "Must read books before you die" in England (second was The Bible) http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2006/mar/02/news.michellepauli
Posted by: someone | April 01, 2011 at 07:42 AM
"Did he really say that?" He definitely said the violin part. I remember it. Regarding the shovel part my memory is failing ... but I think he said that too.
People, who don't know him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geza_Hofi
He was and remains hands down the greatest Hungarian stand-up comedian. He helped us survive the Kadar era. I saw him live in the Madach Camara Theatre. It was histerical.
Pretty much he said something that can be applied to every thread of this blog. Like he was commenting on foreign debt (in the Kadar era!):
"Well, I was told capitalism is dead ... Ohh, very cunning ... borrowing from the dying ... !"
(Jo firmak vagyunk! Haldoklotol kolcsonkerni!)
Posted by: Mutt Damon | April 01, 2011 at 08:01 AM
Jano: "In turn the hatred against gypsies is an experience and mostly fear based racism"
I hear that from Czechs too but I am not sure whether some white Americans would not have said the same about their experience with the "violent" blacks. And there are very interesting sentences of Germans in the 19st century about the intellectual capabilities of Czechs (Theodor Mommsen who wrote extensively on the Roman empire "called Czechs 'apostles of barbarism' and wrote that 'the Czech skull is impervious to reason, but it is susceptible to blows'".) Perhaps this was his "experience". Having said that, it might be the case that the social behaviours of some Roma are so much different from what non-Roma consider "correct" that it is difficult to devise an appropriate strategy. And of course there is now some history in this "coexistence" so that "prejudices" on both side are quite fixed. But when I learned that there is a considerable population of Roma in Spain and France without hearing of such conflicts as in the Czech Republic or Hungary (even if there are for sure also projudices and small-scale conflicts), I am not so sure whether the "fear" of Czechs or Hungarians is not to some extent counter-productive.
Posted by: Kirsten | April 01, 2011 at 10:27 AM
...is not to some extent counter-productive. Meant as: this "fear" reduces the dedication to change the situation of Roma. A broad "integration" would require strong affirmative action and I can imagine that there are reasons even against some such policies as e.g. whether it is too much of our "enlightenment" destroying "cultural heritage" or applying too much pressure. So how far "integration" must go could indeed be debated. But nevertheless the argument is that to "fear" Roma and therefore to discriminate appears to be a poor excuse for the lack of steady effort (I think that there is effort in the Czech Republic and in Hungary but perhaps not always "steady"). And a more efficient police that is impartial against Czechs, Hungarians and Roma would certainly be of great help.
Posted by: Kirsten | April 01, 2011 at 11:04 AM
Ron: Thank you!
Posted by: Jano | April 01, 2011 at 11:05 AM
Mutt The problem of the Roma is almost intractable. It is due to prejudice, which is either learned, or self discovered. It tends to feed on its self, sometimes the poison is driven out from a society and later on reappears. This reappearance is often due to the development of myths and legends. It is often fuelled by some charismatic ‘leader’ who uses it for his/her own ends.
The Roma in general are poorly educated, but that is no excuse. For some 40 years my father knew a man called Jim. Jim at first lived in a tent and a caravan (a ‘varder’ as he called it) on an unofficial waste tip where he recovered lead or copper by burning anything they suspected contained either metal. Jim who could neither read nor write turned up one day and offered my Dad some tools he had for sale. Father bought them and told the man that when he wanted them back he could have them. The tools were never used but were ‘serviced and oiled’. A few months later Jim turned up with pockets full of cash –he was a very good judge of horses-. Dad sold him his tools back (at the original price) and asked him what he was going to do with the rest of the money. Dad suggested that Jim should buy the waste tip. With Dad’s help he did. After that he never looked back and went into the scrap metals business in a big way. Whenever either wanted help they went to each other for it. They never called each other anything bur Mister (Hello Mr X how are you. Very well Mr Y etc). Jim? He was an un-educated Romany (Roma) but he forced his second son to go to school and learn. Dad was a sort of educated person, almost a gentleman, one who did what he did because he wanted to.
How do you change attitudes? The Roma have to somehow get the ‘Can Do attitude’ of Jim. They must develop a positive attitude to education not just to get a good job but also for the sake of having an education –this was the Scots attitude-. The majority must understand and help the minority and vice-verca.
But the problem is you cannot open a human’s scull and change the attitude switches
Posted by: Odin's lost eye | April 01, 2011 at 11:57 AM
Paul: As you said that was in Romania, especially Wallachia and Moldva.
Also, I'm sorry about your wife but please don't project it to the rest of the Hungarians. (It would be like saying every gypsy is a criminal) I'd like to hear her side too tough.
Someone: Of course the American racists made up excuses for their hatred, but I doubt that the criminalization levels of the black population at that times were comparable to the extent crime is a common phenomena among the eastern European Romas today.
Another difference: Can you show me any restaurants or pubs where they admittedly don't serve Romas based solely on skin color? This was very common in the US.
Kirsten: "Having said that, it might be the case that the social behaviours of some Roma are so much different from what non-Roma consider "correct" that it is difficult to devise an appropriate strategy."
Absolutely agree. I think in the past 20 years there has only been a fake effort at the political level regardless of the particular governments (I don't question the dedication of the experts working on the field though). What I'm advocating here is to understand the problem in its complexity rather than just simplify it to a philosophical level so that we have a chance to find that appropriate strategy.
Btw to the Czechs and the Hungarians feel free to add the Slovaks, the Romanians, Slovens, Bulgarians and recently the Italians and the Finnish and as we know also the French. Knowing that the in the Czech Republic there were forced sterilizations, Hungary seems like a cozy home in comparison...
You mentioned Spain and France, they indeed show the difference especially in France where they have been okay with their original Romas but forced repatriation of the eastern Europeans. Why?
Posted by: Jano | April 01, 2011 at 12:06 PM