More about Hungarian education

I got a kick out of John T's father's amazing knowledge of the capitals of the world. I'm actually not surprised. Although I don't remember the exact number of years we were taught geography, it seemed like eternity. It all started in grade five when we had to draw a map of our classroom. From there we moved on to the immediate surroundings of our school. Eventually we ended up studying the map of Pécs. Well, at least we learned to read a map, although GPS is making that an increasingly useless skill.

But then came years and years of geography starting with the different Hungarian counties, including their topography and details of which region produced what products. Eventually we went on to the rest of Europe, North and South America, Africa, and naturally the Soviet Union. I don't think we learned much about China or Japan. Australia I think was left out altogether, or at least I have no recollection of learning anything about it. The names of all those cities, rivers, and lakes eventually got hopelessly mixed up in our heads, and within a year or so we didn't remember a thing. To this day I have problems with South America although I remember standing in front of a map talking about the Amazon.

Lately I have been watching the online videos of a Yale undergraduate lecture series on the American Revolution that I am thoroughly enjoying. The course is taught by Professor Joanne B. Freeman who in her introductory lecture gives some very good advice to her students. Among other things she asks them not to throw around words like "democracy," "war," or "revolution," but to think of the meaning of these words. And there was another remark that I thought worth quoting verbatim: "I will say here we are not going to forget about the British so we're not going to have a patriot-centric course. The British have a logic to what they're doing, whether they're making policy or whether they're fighting battles, and we will definitely look at the logic of what the British are doing as well as what the colonists are doing." I tried desperately to find a Hungarian equivalent of this perspective when discussing the 1848-49 events. Hungarians teach this period in "patriot-centric" courses. I have never heard of anyone inquiring whether the court's actions had any logic whatsoever.

Yesterday I mentioned the entrance examination students have to take in order to be able to attend, for example, law school. I found the questions on these entrance exams totally useless in determining whether the young man or woman has analytical skills or how much he/she understands about written passages. The only thing the students can demonstrate by scoring well on these tests is how successful they were at memorizing four years' worth of textbooks for their matriculation examinations. Anyone with a good memory can get into the best law school although he might be utterly unfit intellectually for the profession.

So, while Hungarian high school students are taking these silly examinations, American college students who want to go to law school take a standardized test, the LSAT. Law school admissions committees place great weight on an applicant's LSAT score. So, let's see what kind of a test it is. The LSAT has several sections: logical reasoning, analytical reasoning, author's purpose, reading main ideas, and reading comprehension. There is also an unscored writing sample. Here is a practice question from the analytical reasoning section: 

A charitable foundation awards grants in exactly four areas--medical services, theater arts, wildlife preservation, and youth services--each grant being in one of these areas. One or more grants are awarded in each of the four quarters of a calendar year. Additionally, over the course of a calendar year, the following must obtain: Grants are awarded in all four areas. No more than six grants are awarded. No grants in the same area are awarded in the same quarter or in consecutive quarters. Exactly two medical services grants are awarded. A wildlife preservation grant is awarded in the second quarter.

If a wildlife preservation grant and a youth services grant are awarded in the same quarter of a particular calendar year, then any of the following could be true that year EXCEPT: (A) A medical services grant is awarded in the second quarter. (B) A theater arts grant is awarded in the first quarter. (C) A theater arts grant is awarded in the second quarter. (D) A wildlife preservation grant is awarded in the fourth quarter. (E) A youth services grant is awarded in the third quarter. [The correct answer, by the way, is (E).]

For those of you who want to try your hand at acing the LSAT, here's the official practice site. 

If Hungary retreats from the modest modernization that was achieved in the last decade or so, it will inevitably fall behind other nations educationally and economically.

By the way, Rózsa Hoffmann would very much approve of the "black marks" Jo's daughter received for not having a sharp enough pencil. The favorite old-school Hungarian way of dealing with children who don't behave properly is to humiliate them in front of everybody. Often in front of the whole class, but I had to suffer the humiliation of walking around and around the playground during recess with all the other "bad children" in front of the whole school.

I also agree with Mutt Damon who pointed out that French and especially American schools put a great deal of emphasis on self-confidence as opposed to the Hungarian practice. Surely, we all ought to know how important it is to be praised here and there instead of receiving constant criticism. I have an Internet friend whose daughter attended a school where Ms. Hoffmann taught for a while. According to her, Hoffmann excelled at punishing students, failing them, and constantly criticizing them. To my mind that means that she was a lousy teacher. And now she is in charge of changing the Hungarian school system. A horrific prospect.

 

Comments

[Jano]

When I was in elementary school my teacher only gave black points for really outrageous behavior, she rather gave red points for the people who did good and just no points for the rest (the differenc is slight but psychologically huge at the same time!).

On the other hand in high school I had a German teacher who did 1 or 5 tests (one mistake -> 1 or F in US terms) which is just the stupidest and most unjust thing I've ever heard. We also got black points (at the age of 14-18). And for five black points we got a 1. Later it was banned by school regulations but then the informatics teacher came up with a solution: He improvised an oral exam like "What is the color-code of light magenta in Pascal?" You can guess the results.

Getting back to the German teacher, his method amazingly worked and every classmate of mine learned to speak German on at least an acceptable level. I was amazed last time I went to Germany that I was still able to chat with the taxi driver after not speaking German for years. So there is no direct connection between the quality of the teaching and the old fashioned methods teachers tend to use. There are world class high schools in Hungary teaching the Prussian way, the problem is the vast majority of crappy schools applying the Prussian methods but still giving a fairly useless education and this way producing mentally broken kids with useless or no knowledge.

About the patriot-centered approach to 1848, I think at the university level they take a thorough look and talk the Austrian perspective over as well. In high school you are right, but that situation is the same in the US as well. My favorite way to "offend" American pats/nats is to laugh when they start explaining what a magnificent victory they achieved in the war of 1812.

As I figured in American high schools, the part of the self-confidence building is exactly the pat-centered history education, so this is rather contradictory to me in the post.

I totally agree with you in criticizing the entrance exam. When I graduated from high School, it was an urban legend that once the test asked for the license plate of Hitler's car on which he drove through Vienna after the Anschluss. Actually, the syllabus for the exam said that everything in Konrad Salamon's book can be the subject of a question. And indeed, there is a picture of Hitler riding through Vienna on which the license plate is clearly readable so they had the right to ask it:) I still don't know if this actually happened, but to tell the truth I wouldn't be suprised if it had.

[Mutt Damon]

It seems the suppression of self-confidence in the Hungarian schools works so well that we don't even know what we are missing. We are not talking about the new FIDESZ style deep-hungarian-szittya-holy-crown pride. It has nothing to do with patriotism. It is be the child believing in his/her own abilities without the constant fear from failing or not doing things according to the expectations. In short: being yourself.

Jano mentioned the relation between "the quality of teaching" and "old fashioned methods". Well, I guess the key is defining the "teaching". Following the "old fashioned methods" - keep punishing the children until they memorize a great deal of German words - is easy. No risk. Very comfortable for the TEACHER. Teachers stick to these so called methods because it is less work, requires no talent, and you can't go wrong. If the child didn't "perform" - it's the child fault. Didn't work hard enough.

Our teachers are the product of our own screwed up system.

[An]

There are good schools in Hungary. In my high school I don't remember having to memorize anything, we were taught to think and analyze. In many ways my education in high school was superior to what I received later at the University (in Hungary) (where, sad to say, lacking rote memorization skills did hurt in some subjects). True, that was a so-called "elite gimnazium", not the average high school.

[An]

As for self-confidence, American students usually rank highest on self-confidence in international rankings, while their math, science and reading scores are around or below average.

Just food for thought. Artificially increasing students' self-confidence won't make them better students (as the practice had been in the US).

This is not to endorse the humiliating practices of Hungarian schools... I agree, these are unfortunately widespread and harmful.

Students should get a fair assessment of their performance; encouraging, but not artificially boastful, critical, if needed, but not humiliating.

I don't think Hungarians should look at the US as the best example for an educational system. Rather look at Finland, for example.

Here is an interesting interview below with the senior advisor to the Finish Ministry of Education.

In Finland they made a conscious effort to improve education and they achieved in in 10-15 years. What they needed for this:

1. a general agreement of all political parties that education is important and on how to improve it based on professional expertise (not on political agendas)

2. dedication to improve teacher training and recruit the top students to teacher training programs.

Here is the link to the interview from PBS: Why Finland leads the world in education

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/video/pasi-sahlberg-on-why-finland-leads-the-world-in-education/5711/

[Mutt Damon]

An: "Artificially increasing students' self-confidence won't make them better students"

Gosh, this is soooo Hungarian. So you looked at somebody and thought: nah, I don't think this guy can do what he believes in. Come on, they don't tell you, you can fly. Ok, let's put it this way: they don't kill your self-confidence.

There is another important thing besides self confidence. Here in the US your life doesn't end if you finish high school with less desirable grades. For instance one of my kid spent more time socializing then studying in high school. Class vice president, (almost) homecoming queen, yadi yadi yada. Anyway she flunked math in junior year (3rd) went to summer school. Not good. Then she changed. She went to a community college after graduation, got straight As and after two years she got accepted to Virginia Tech. All credits accepted. Ok, the point is this: the education system is more then just restrictive or permissive teachers. It should take your kid to the college degree no matter what :-)

[Jano]

Mutt: But it was not just that. That teacher has an incredible knowledge of German, the etymology, the history, spoke 5 languages fluently, so sometimes his teaching was enjoyable. But he was old-fashioned yes.

We had an icredible amount of homework all that time (and let's face it, learning a language is all about practicing it unless someone is a real natural). Looking back I don't regret it even though I hated him at that point. And it wasn't easy for him because he was under constant attack from parents. I don't agree with the punishment methods he used (although I still remember Hängebauschwein- csüngő hasú disznó, as that was the word I got a 1 for:) ), but his teaching was super efficient, there is no way to deny that.

I think the answer to what you wrote is that okay teacher makes you work hard with the old fashioned method, but with good teaching that work actually has fruits. I'm still not in favor of the Prussian way but that makes sense and serves the primary purpose of education. On the other hand I had other old-fashioned teachers who made us work a lot with terror but most of that work was in vain. E.g. I once had an English teacher who thought that memorizing English texts (the reading part of the lession) by heart is the best way to learn English. My step dad, who's an education expert, was tearing out whatever hair he had left....

[An]

@Mutt Damon: "Gosh, this is soooo Hungarian. So you looked at somebody and thought: nah, I don't think this guy can do what he believes in."

No, I didn't. Please re-read what I wrote before: "As for self-confidence, American students usually rank highest on self-confidence in international rankings, while their math, science and reading scores are around or below average." This is what I based on my comment about self-confidence on.

All I was trying to say, and maybe didn't articulate it clearly, is that boosting students self-confidence in itself won't make them perform better. Both making students overly confident or overly insecure (by humiliation) hinders learning. For learning to take place students need encouraging, but realistic feedback.

[Mutt Damon]

@An When do we think that somebody's self-confidence is "artificially increased"? Superman can fly. Why can't I?

All right. I get your point. What folks have yet to learn in Planet Hungary is that self-confidence is more important than science scores.

[An]

@Mutt Damon: A lot of things are more important than science scores.
This was not the point of the discussion.

[Mutt Damon]

@An "This was not the point of the discussion."

Oh, yes. The education in Hungary. My bad ... 8-)

[Eric]

I think that this chart should of interest for you: http://futurejournalismproject.org/post/4779818218/teachers-worth

[Odin's lost eye]

Before we can criticise the education system in any country we have to look at the objective of the leadership of that country.

When I was at school the Labour Government of the U.K. wanted one thing and one thing only. It was to produce a docile skilled workforce that would serve and support unthinkingly, the new Socialist Britain which in return would look after the people ‘from the cradle to the grave’.

After a while the government changed so we ‘twerps’ had to learn new things. In particular we had to learn how the ‘system’ worked. It was called ‘Civics’. It taught us how the law courts worked, who was responsible for what. We were also taught about the ‘Liberties of the Citizen’, our ‘rights’ and if we forgot them where to find them. Above all it rammed home that we were free-born Brits who should ‘stand on our hind legs’.

This caused a God all mighty row within the Labour Party and the establishment which rumbles on to this day. The Conservatives seemed to want people to think for themselves and worst than that to take responsibility for their own doings and future. But the old Labour idea of ‘Nanny Knows Best’ is still very much alive over there.

Hungarian education until 20 years ago had the same purpose as the requirements of the Labour Party which was to produce a docile compliant workforce which would not question the wisdom of the leadership. They also wanted their population to understand their revolutionary philosophy. This was the weakness in their system as it allowed questions to be asked as it tried to justify its historic actions.

Now (today) the leadership want something similar except there will be NO questioning and no understanding of the Party’s philosophy what so ever. You do not need to know. You do not need to think, Fidesz does it all for you. All you will need to know are ‘facts’ and those facts will be what the leadership decide them to be.

Under the communist system there was ‘Carrot and Stick’. If your parentage was right you could become a party Member by regurgitating the tenets of Marx Leninism and be rewarded with privilege.

With the new, Fidesz, revolution there will only be ‘a very big stick’. This is to subjugate and drive home the fact that you ARE inferior, a nothing, a ‘nobody’, not even a statistic! All you will do is to serve Fidesz.
A lawyer does not have to think or analyse – the verdict was decided long ago.

To the population as a whole only your black marks are recorded. Too many and you are eliminated (‘the evil that men do lives on after them the good is oft interred with their bones’). Not to many black marks and you might perhaps get a glimpse paradise of the new ‘saints’ -Saint Orban and the others-.

I wonder if I could get a job in the new Government Department of Applied Miracles?

[An]

@Eric: Very interesting chart.Thanks for posting it.

[Mutt Damon]

@Eric On the chart comparing salaries to the GDP is not really fair. I guess Uganda would beat the Finnish by a mile. On the other hand seeing Planet Hungary on the bottom on both sides (hours worked and low compensation) doesn't surprise me. Say what? Working harder to make more?

[John T]

Odin - I'd have to disagree with some of the points you've raised.

I think that the Labour government wanted to ensure that everyone had the chance of an education and it was a pillar of a wider social agenda. But I don't think they were looking for a docile population.

I've mentioned before that I spend a lot of time on family history and it is fascinating to see that as recently as 100 years ago, huge numbers of people signed certificates / documents only with a mark. Thats only 4 generations ago. The lack of education condemned many to a grim existance. And what saddens me is that many of these people were no doubt bright and capable, who had they had the chance of proper schooling, could have achieved so much more.

Where Labour failed was to set the attainment bar too low. What they should have aspired to was to bring up standards to those of the grammar schools, rather than let many comprehensives wallow and dumb down. Part of this was down to an element of "class envy" of course, but factors such as inner city poverty, parental involvement etc. also had an impact on the quality of the schooling. I'm a product of the comprehensive system and went to a pretty good High School (the same as one J Major esq.). But Wimbledon is a reasonably affluent part of London and the parents were much more involved in supporting the teachers during the school years. In many inner cities, the parents couldn't care less where their kids are and that attitude has been around for generations.

While I want every kid to do as well as possible, I do think that streaming and identifying where vocational rather than academic education should be an element of the system. I think you don't hold any pupil back, but you also look to nuture potential. Everyone is capable of doing something well - but often, you need to help kids to identify where their strengths are.

[John T]

Odin - Additionally, I don't disagree that people should take responsibility for their actions / wellbeing etc. But Mrs Thatcher infamously said their was no such thing as society, which is patently wrong. Society exists as soon as we set foot outside of our front door - the debate of course is what sort of society we want to have. I can't afford to live in a house in a gated community, isolated from the "great unwashed". So I'm happy to pay my taxes to support a health service, education and other elements of a civil society. But I also expect everyone to do exactly the same. What I don't have time for are people who are happy to live a life on benefits, doing nothing to contribute to the society they are part and who condemn their kids to a similar existance through non existant parenting.

Sadly, Blair used this as a soundbite, but a society where you have rights also comes with responsibilities and I certainly think we should come down hard on those that don't accept their responsibilities. And I have to say, that again, you only need to go back a 150 years or so to see how grim life was without the pillars that we now have supporting society.

[eric]

@an: you welcome
@ Mutt Damon: I think that this shows salary as proportion of the GDC per capita. So it can be compared across various countries.

Originally this chart is much bigger and shows way more data, that is thought provoking. Please find it here:
http://soshable.com/a-teachers-worth-around-the-world-infographic/

[Jo Peattie]

I think that self confidence is the key. My daughter was self confident and reasonably assured when we she started school last August. It was heart breaking to see this confidence deflated. I recently confronted one of her teachers about the reason for the black marks- not very satisfactorily. It was pointed out to my daughter that the black marks did not really matter- it was the red ones that counted. If this is really the case then why give them?? I am coming to the conclusion that the system is so ingrained that not a great deal of thought is employed by teachers before dishing them out. My daughter is insisting on a ritual cremation of the orange book where all of her black marks- and her red marks too are recorded as soon as she moves to her new school. Unfortunately she has told her teacher- who went purple- as my daughter says...

[An]

@Jo Peattie: I have no idea why Hungarian schools insist on these black marks in 1st grade.. at that age it is really discouraging and unnecessary. It would be sufficient to reward good performance/behavior with the red marks as kids that age are usually eager to do well and motivated by positive feedback.

My comments on self-confidence was really not about this age group or about this situation. It's more specific to the US, and if interested, here is a good summary of it:

http://www2.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3747692

[Jano]

Thanks An, this is an awesome piece, I recommend it to everyone.

[Paul]

Two quick comments, as I am ill and tired:

A message first to non-UK readers, Odin presents a somewhat one-sided view of the Labour Party's education policy. I was at school throughout this period and benefited greatly from the new style of teaching - getting us to think and ask, rather than just stuffing us with facts. Unfortunately, under both 'New' Labour and the Con-Dems, education is being taken back to Gradgrindian basics.

Secondly, from a UK perspective, Jo is quite right, self-confidence is all. The big difference between the 'Public' (private) and State schools in the UK is that the privately taught pupils emerge with an amazing self-confidence. Armed with the belief that you can do anything and anything is possible, it's amazing how this becomes true.

I am a left-wing socialist/liberal (I can just hear JB spitting!), but I would send my kids to Public school if I could afford it for this benefit alone. It would be the most important single thing I could give them.

It's no accident that Americans are so self-confident and 'can do', and that the US is such an overwhelmingly successful country.

(compare and contrast with Hungary...)

Back to my sick bed...

[An]

@Paul: Well, if self-confidence is all, then I guess it is a good thing that Mr. Orban is so self-confident. Not a flicker of doubt on his part, that's for sure.

[Mutt Damon]

@An Yep. If you put your mind to it you can f up any country ... :-) Hajra Magyarok!

[Paul]

An - I'm not sure you meant to support my argument, but your reference to OV does exactly that. Just how far would he have got without his self-confidence?

Anyone with even a smidgen of self-doubt would have failed at any one of the many stages he had to 'win' to get to where he is now.

[An]

@Paul: There is a level of self-confidence which is unhealthy. A level, as in Orban's case, when one is so sure of his own judgment that he fails consult experts or listen to other opinions. This leads to a lot of hasty decisions and mistakes.

Healthy self-confidence means that one is aware of his own capabilities and limitations and is OK with them. Self-confident people don't need to act like they know everything and can do everything.

So what I am trying to say that both overconfidence and insecurity in one's abilities are harmful. In fact, both the overly confident and the insecure suffer from the same thing: a lack of realistic, but positive self-image.