What's wrong with the Hungarian police?

Of course, a lot. One could list scores of problems, starting with its overly centralized structure. A number of experts on Hungarian law enforcement would love to see the introduction of local police forces in cities and towns. Others blame Fidesz for its constant criticism of the police that ended in the paralysis of the entire organization. People on the right blame the socialists and the liberals for using the police as a political tool.

I'm sure that some of these are all valid observations, but here I would like to talk about something else: the confusion that seems to reign about whom the police are supposed to defend. The events in Gyöngyöspata lend support to my opinion about these wrong assumptions. There as elsewhere in troubled villages the police assumed the role of an honest broker. Yes, there are the neo-Nazis and there are the Gypsies. The neo-Nazis don't like the Gypsies, so let's separate them, however temporarily. Neo-Nazis to the right, Gypsies to the left, and all will be well. The Hungarian police don't seem to understand that, among other things, they are supposed to ensure the safety of the minority. Be that ethnic or peaceful protesters.

Let me illustrate what I mean with an event that took place Monday in front of the Sándor Palota just before Pál Schmitt signed the new constitution. Interest in the event was slim. About one hundred people, including a group of tourists from Hong Kong, stood and waited for the great moment. Thanks to a video available on Origo's website we can see some elderly citizens in rapture. Real hard-core true believers who seem to have slim knowledge of Hungarian history or anything else. The military band played merrily while they explained to the reporter that things went wrong in the past because everybody could do whatever they felt like doing. Everything will be fine after the introduction of the new constitution because it will put an end to liberalism that ever since 1919 has done incredible damage to the nation.

Although it was raining, the enthusiasts gathered to celebrate "the historic event." There was one lone protester who was holding up a poster which said "No Fidesz tákolmány" (No Fidesz botched-up job). Police were on hand, but they did nothing when some people from the crowd attacked the man, grabbed his poster, threw it on the ground, trampled on it, and tore it into pieces. At this point the police went into "action". They stood by the man as he was picking up the remnants of his poster, and when he finished they escorted him away from the scene. I don't think that it occurred to these policemen that they were supposed to defend the protester's right to free speech, that he wasn't the one who did something wrong but it was rather those government supporters who attacked him and ruined his poster.

I don't expect these young policemen to know much about democracy and freedom of speech on their own, but I do expect their superiors to teach them something. I don't know what orders the police in Heves County received when they were told to go to Gyöngyöspata, but we would expect them to be told that in a democracy they have to defend the minority from an aggressive paramilitary group that seems to enjoy the support of the majority. Separating them into two parts of the village is simply not enough.

I was also astonished by the fact that when the Roma women and children returned from Csillebérc and Szolnok the police were not there to protect them from a group of people who were not exactly rolling out the welcome mat. One didn't need a lot of imagination to predict that there might be trouble if the two groups met. And indeed, when a non-Gypsy woman yelled that it was too bad that the Roma people returned, a Gypsy woman hit her rather hard on the face.

When one comes to reading the reports of what happened in Gyöngyöspata last night there is only confusion. The neo-Nazis blame the Gypsies and the Gypsies the neo-Nazis. It is not at all clear whether we will ever find out exactly what happened. But all reports agree that the police were not on hand. According to one account there was only one patrolman left in the whole village; a few hours later there were more policemen in the village but they were busy elsewhere attending to some neighborhood squabble. We do know that both the neo-Nazis and the Gypsies were out on the streets courting trouble. Not surprisingly, trouble came.

All this tells me that the Hungarian police force was not up to snuff. The policemen allowed a situation to develop that was bound to end badly. The members of Véderő, reinforced with another paramilitary group that calls itself "Highwaymen," returned to Gyöngyöspata one by one until their number perhaps exceeded the original small band that set up camp in the village last week. The more uniformed paramilitary troops in sight, the greater the panic on the other side. Something is very wrong with the organization and the self-assessment of the police's role. Some fundamentals about the defense of the minority are in order. And not only in the police force but also in the present Hungarian government.

 

 

Comments

[Kirsten]

Now I am thinking whether this will not lead to some reaction from the EU. Not necessarily because of the rights of an ethnic minority (cynical as it is) but because one member state apparently is unable to secure public order with its police forces. I really cannot decide whether they do not want to or whether they are unable to do so, the second being even the more worrying option. The EU could be alarmed as Hungary also has an EU external frontier - protected by a police that does not know how to appease the situation in Gyöngyöspata...?

[Jano]

I totally agree, as far as I see it, the police can have a large presence if they want to, (just remember the footages from 2006 okt 23, I mean the ones when only a few protesters remained on the street but the police just kept on arriving and arriving in incredible numbers).

Still they are unable to handle the situation in a village. If this whole event has only one conclusion, than it's certainly that we really have to do something with our law enforcement.

Btw, for interested hun speakers, I think fenteslent's today piece is very accurate

http://fenteslent.blog.hu/2011/04/27/ki_a_felelos_gyongyospataert

[Paul]

"We do know that both the neo-Nazis and the Gypsies were out on the streets courting trouble."

The neo-Nazis, who had 'invaded' the village and were clearly attempting to (at least) frighten the Roma, were "out on the streets courting trouble", but the Roma themselves were facing intimidation and probably worse from a bunch of thugs who were on THEIR streets. So, whatever they were doing out on the streets, it's hardly fair to describe it as "courting trouble".

Perhaps it wasn't the best response, but it's entirely understandable (and who else was going to stand up for them or protect them?), whereas the Jobbik thugs were there entirely to "court trouble".

This may seem like nit-picking, but I think we have to be very careful with the language we use in these situations, and I fear Éva has fallen into the same trap as the police - trying to maintain 'balance' in her reporting when the situation itself was entirely unbalanced.

If I discover a burglar in my house and ring the police, I do not want them coming round and separating us so the intruder can carry on with his business, I want him arrested and taken away. But nor do I expect any reports of the burglary to describe me as behaving unreasonably towards the burglar.

[ABB]

" And indeed, when a non-Gypsy woman yelled that it was too bad that the Roma people returned, a Gypsy woman hit her rather hard on the face."

The defender of this roma woman describes on facebook, what happenned in the last two weeks with her and her grandchildren. She was cursed, intimidated and her grandchild was photographed by nazis in the school with the aggreement of the school teacher.
I think that Gyongyospata is Tiszaeszlar of the 21st century. The locals are welcoming and accommodating the neo-nazi groups.
This link is in Hungarian:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/notes/d%C3%A1niel-p%C3%A9ter/gy%C3%B6ngy%C3%B6spata/218409634852593
About Tiszaeszlar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiszaeszl%C3%A1r_Affair

[Paul]

Right off topic (apologies) - I just found this on another thread, and obviously JB can't have read it, as he never replied. So I thought I'd save him the trouble of hunting it down and repost it where he's more likely to see it:

"Back to the Chinese-Hungarian communist friendship meeting... I am still waiting to hear JB's take on this. To be honest, there is not often I want to hear from him, but I have two questions outstanding to him:

1. What did You, johnny or your parents do against the "terror" between 1956-1998. You are so proud that you did not serve that government, not like the others who did, so what did your family do?

2. What is your opinion about the cosy political talks between China and the Fidesz? Do you think the Fidesz is about to turn the Chinese into a real democracy?

Posted by: someone | April 23, 2011 at 11:02 PM"

And, while you're answering those questions, JB, perhaps you could remind me where you posted those 'friendly foreign newspaper' sources you promised me? I've searched high and low and I'm blowed if I can find them.

[Mutt Damon]

I re-read Eva's post from about 2 years ago:

http://esbalogh.typepad.com/hungarianspectrum/2009/07/hungarian-law-enforcement.html

Nothing changed. The old police jokes are still true. I would actually compare the police to the Kadar era police. Same confusion. In the past 20 years governments just forgot about them.

[Ron]

Mutt Damon: In the past 20 years governments just forgot about them.

I disagree with you on this. Actually they were not forgotten, but they were the scape goats of the politicians.

Basically, the task of the police is to uphold the law, actually the constitution. That is also their oath before installation.

Their task is to protect the State, and not as some believe first the people (actually they are last in the line).

In most countries/states, the constitution is the highest law, followed by a number of economic laws, including the Civil Code, and only then the Penal Code (basically the Roman/French system).

The police is just one of the instruments of the State to enforce/defend these laws.

As to the recent events, it shows that the police is demoralized, confused (re-opening of the 2006 case) and, although not shown, underpaid.

Most of these police man/woman have family and/or mortgage (perhaps Swiss Franc), build up pension and social rights. They will not jeopardize this by acting (only on orders) and therefore, may be the scape goat for the politicians.

Especially, Mr. Pinter is moving on shaky grounds, as he did not fulfilled his promise. Everything will be under control within a fortnight.

[GW]

"Basically, the task of the police is to uphold the law, actually the constitution."

And this is a perfect example of the dangerousness of the new constitution's strong ethnic character. Under a "Republic of Hungary", there is absolute clarity that the constitution is responsible to and for the citizens of the republic; under the new constitution of "Hungary", there is a strong impression that the document was written on the behalf of ethnic Hungarians — whatever, exactly, that may mean —, not all the citizens of a particular state, indeed the definition of "citizen" may well become cloudy for a police force pledged to uphold and defend the constitution when they find themselves confronted with an ethnic conflict.

[Ron]

About Mr. Pinter. Do you think he is meeting his targets for 2011?

http://www.kormany.hu/en/ministry-of-interior/news/sandor-pinter-we-would-like-to-have-another-type-of-police

[Ron]

The Hungarian Police text of Oath in Hungarian:

Az eskü szövege:

„Én ................................. a Magyar Köztársaság ................................................................... tagja esküszöm, hogy a Magyar Köztársaság alkotmányához, törvényeihez és más jogszabályaihoz híven, becsületesen teljesítem kötelességemet. Elöljáróim és feljebbvalóim parancsainak engedelmeskedem.

Esküszöm, hogy hazám alkotmányos és törvényes rendjét, nemzetünk biztonságát, ha kell, életem kockáztatásával is hűségesen megvédem. Mindenkor az állampolgári jogok érvényesítését tartom szem előtt, és a nép érdekeinek megfelelően járok el.

Esküszöm, hogy elöljáróimat, munkatársaimat megvédem, fegyveremet, felszerelésemet megóvom.

A szolgálati ismereteket elsajátítom. A rendet és fegyelmet minden törvényes eszközzel fenntartom. Alárendeltjeimről a legjobb tudásom szerint gondoskodom, őket öntudatos hazafiakká, a népek kölcsönös tiszteletére nevelem. Minden erőmmel, törekvésemmel, tudásommal a Magyar Köztársaság fejlődését szolgálom.

Az állam- és szolgálati titkot híven megtartom. Szolgálatban és szolgálaton kívül példamutatóan viselkedem.”

[\auz]

We are missing one hero of the Hungarian history. Bela Kiraly did on July 4, 2009.

He was the moral, the soul of Hungary, more than Imre Nagy, or Ferenc Donath, of Pal Maleter....

He was instrumental in returning the royal crown to Hungary.

He was the man, who could return the streets of Budapest in October 1956 for a few days.

The ultimate officer, and politician.

Read his Amire Nincs Ige.

[someone]

Ron: "Most of these police man/woman have family and/or mortgage (perhaps Swiss Franc), build up pension and social rights. They will not jeopardize this by acting (only on orders) and therefore, may be the scape goat for the politicians." My exact sentiments! If the government acts in a "wink-wink" system, only serving popularist interests, the message gets confusing .In 2006, who should they protect. Do not forget that it was the Fidesz who said it clearly that the police should of used live ammo, then turned around 180 degree and used the event to score some political points from the right and from the ill-informed. Now, here we are in a very similar turf. There is a group of thugs who pushes the envelope, and Orban scared to death to act properly (he scared from the impact from the right, but cannot neglect the possible impact from the EU), so police does not receive clear instructions, and the police is scared tp anything, as their words worth peanut for the Fidesz. Fidesz does not decide beforehand what they want the police to do.. it is a wishes game.

[Mutt Damon]

Bruhaha. Based on this "oath" Pinter should dismiss the four cops who escorted away the demonstrator at the Sandor Palace after he was assulted by bystanders. I wonder what Pinter's oath is. "I, Pinter Sandor, I do solemnly swear that I will make billions on the sale of my company, by making sure, they have ample business from the government while I'm in office. God help me!"

[Johnny Boy]

"we would expect them to be told that in a democracy they have to defend the minority from an aggressive paramilitary group that seems to enjoy the support of the majority"

Absolutely not true.
It's the peaceful civilian minority that needs protection from most of the local gypsies whose majority are ruthless criminals, having kept people in terror for years.

Ever wondered why that paramilitary group "seems to enjoy the support of the majority"? I guess not! It seems your only answer is that the majority is racist... But not even you can be so goofy!

News: Máté Kocsis, Fidesz MP motioned to set up a parliamentary commission to investigate the Gyöngyöspata case, the key focus points are:
* circumstances of the last week holiday of the Roma, who supported it, who organized it, and with what objective;
* who and why lied that it was an evacuation, and why was panic created, despite the Red Cross stating that this trip was planned long before;
* what role did Richard Field assume, for what initiation, by whom was he charged with his actions and why he lied it was an evacuation;
* who are and who are behind those criminals in military uniforms and who are these criminals sponsored by.

A very necessary investigation, I must say.

[Johnny Boy]

Paul the Troll: "but the Roma themselves were facing intimidation and probably worse from a bunch of thugs who were on THEIR streets. So, whatever they were doing out on the streets, it's hardly fair to describe it as "courting trouble"."

Your ignorance is so striking that it is really frightening to see that you have the temerity to sit in judgement on the case. You have obviously never seen a gypsy colony, let alone any town that has such serious gypsy problem as Gyöngyöspata. You'd better keep extremely quiet on the matter.

[Mutt Damon]

@Johnny This is madness! Investigation?? What is the charge?? And who is charged?? I understand that the government is pissed because of the press this incident generated but if they proceed with an "investigation" they will make it a lot worse. Why is this government is about revenge all the time?

[Ron]

Here is some footage of an organized gypsy vacation tour in Siofok 2008. I do not see a problem?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jprLvrlV-40

[Pete H.]

Kis Johnny, I have viewed dozens of videos with interviews with local Gyöngyöspata residents. The common theme among the non-Roma is that about 10 - 15 Roma are creating problems. That is about 3% of the Roma population in that village. How is that the majority? Only racist logic would warp a small fraction into a blanket statement about a whole people. The Roma of Gyöngyöspata should not have suffer under the burden of collective guilt and collective punishment for the crimes of the few among them. Law enforcement should focus on those particular individuals that are committing crimes. The fascist want-to-be thugs should be in shame for terrorizing the innocent woman and children of Gyöngyöspata and other villages in Hungary. I am glad to see Fidesz taking a strong stand on this issue by submitting legislation to criminalize pseudo-law enforcement groups. I hope they follow up with credible implementation.

[Pete H.]

You can listen to the voices of those "ruthless criminals" here:

http://jogtalanul.blog.hu/2011/04/15/gyongyospata_emberkozelbol

and here:

http://jogtalanul.blog.hu/2011/04/22/repul_a_nehez_ko_3

You will also hear the voices of non-Roma who state that it is just a small minority of the Roma that are causing trouble.

Johnny what kind of man are you that you would justify the verbal abuse of women and children?

[Pete H.]

Ron, I have seen several racist commentators post that video as evidence of Gypsy terror. On the video there is no threatening behavior, just a group of men walking and some ominous background music. That is unless you are simply afraid of a large group of Roma walking together. Please, provide some links to reports of arrests during that evening. If you can't it is simply a case of irrational fear of seeing a group "walking while Roma". Calling that an "aggressive march without a permit" (as the video caption does) is akin to calling a group of 100 pensioners walking down the Siofolk promenade a problem. Don't Roma have freedom of movement in Hungary? Or are they supposed to stay in the streets in the back-end of their village?

[Mutt Damon]

"Don't Roma have freedom of movement in Hungary?"

They still do, but using a bus seems to be a problem according to the government ..

[Ron]

Off topic: The government's proposal for reducing bureaucracy:

http://www.napi.hu/magyar_gazdasag/on_is_rosszul_jarhat_a_kormany_uj_csomagjaval.481019.html

[GDF]

Pete H: "Johnny what kind of man are you that you would justify the verbal abuse of women and children?"

I hope you don't expect an answer from him to this question. We all know the answer.

[someone]

Johnny: Why don't you answer the questions that are directed at you? It was asked over and over. You are a hypocrite as far as your big hatred of the "lefties" and communists are going.WE also missed your account on how did you and your family act against the "regime" between 1956-1988. You despise every single person who you suppose worked to better those darn communists between the time above. We still want to hear your take on the cosy Hungarian-Chinese relations with no avail.
An other question.. were you in Gyongyospata on the weekend?

[Kirsten]

Ron: "Their task is to protect the State, and not as some believe first the people (actually they are last in the line)."

I do not know what is stated in the new Fidesz Constitution but the one still in force says this:
Art. 3: The State of the Republic of Hungary shall defend the freedom and sovereignty of the people...
Art. 8: (1) The Republic of Hungary recognizes inviolable and inalienable fundamental human rights. The respect and
protection of these rights is a primary obligation of the State.
Art. 40(A): (2) The fundamental duty of the police is to maintain public safety and domestic order.
Article 54.: (1) In the Republic of Hungary everyone has the inherent right to life and to human dignity.
Article 68: (2) The Republic of Hungary shall provide for the protection of national and ethnic minorities...

So I think there is ample room for the police to use their oath on the Constitution for protecting people that need it just now. (The president's guard and the Holy Crown's guard need not be deployed.)