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« Whither MSZP? | Main | Cheating in Hungarian schools and universities »

May 23, 2011

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Johnny Boy

"would most likely be..."
"Rumor has it that..."
"lately has been described as"
"an English-language article circulated"
"recently was widely criticized"

For what? From where? By whom? By whom? By whom?
Lol.
The essence of your very "analytic" work is summarized by these statements and their value.

Ron

Johnny Boy:
"would most likely be..." was a rumor which turn to be true.
"Rumor has it that..." remains a rumor as VO will not inform who is out or not.
"lately has been described as" remains a rumor as VO will not inform who is out or not.

"an English-language article circulated"
http://en.hdhod.com/Hungary-sacks-Holocaust-museum-chief_a6602.html

"recently was widely criticized"
http://kultura.hu/main.php?folderID=1&ctag=articlelist&iid=1&articleID=310756

It was easy to find. No lies here from the Professor.

hsan

In Hungarian:
http://es.hu/2011-03-23_az-okok-es-az-okozatok

http://www.galamus.hu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61398%3Aorwell-vilaga-epuel&catid=71%3Aa-napi-apro&Itemid=109

http://www.galamus.hu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61190%3Aidea-allasfoglalas-gal-andras-allamtitkar-toertenelemismereterl&catid=79%3Akiemelt-hirek&Itemid=115

In English:
From the weekly newspaper “168 óra” (168 Hours), March 28, 2011

Official would Rearrange the Holocaust Exhibit

In a so-called interview recently published on the governmental internet portal, the State Secretary of Public Administration accuses the permanent exhibition at the Holocaust Memorial Center of advocating “a skewed take on history”; he urges a “reassessment” of the exhibit. The incident is related to the personnel changes initiated by the government as well as the issue of Jewish compensation.

On the governmental internet portal kormany.hu, an interview appeared recently with András Levente Gál, State Secretary of Public Administration at the Ministry of Public Administration and Justice. The author of the interview is unlisted, yet it is written in a question-answer format, in the context of which the state secretary—a lawyer with various legal specializations as well as experience in television editing and media curation—explains his governmental ideas under the title “More Active Consultation with Jewish Communities”. In this connection, he also revealed to us the answer to a previous question our newspaper had posed to him, inquiring about his ministry: what is behind the personnel changes planned at the Páva-Street Holocaust Documentation Center and Memorial Collection (HDKE).

It is for the purpose of raising the level of professionalism that the Ministry would replace all members of the HDKE Board, and subsequently appoint a specialized historian to replace the current managing director. But the State Secretary’s claims published on the government portal reveal that this is not the real reason. In fact, the replacements have nothing to do with professional quality, but with the following factors: (i) while the government wants to strengthen its ties to Jewish organizations within Hungary and abroad, it wants to “place in the government’s hands” the research aspect of Jewish compensation issues that are still pending, taking over from the Hungarian Jewish Heritage Public Foundation (MAZSÖK Foundation), which was, in theory, set up precisely for this purpose; and (ii) the State Secretary wants to change a certain part of the Memorial Center’s permanent exhibition covering the Hungarian Holocaust. As far as we know, with respect to the first issue, the government did not even consult experts at HDKE; meanwhile, concerning the implementation of the second change, the government can hardly count on the cooperation of HDKE experts.

It brings an unusual overtone to the “interview” with András Levente Gál that he mentions the change in board members as though it was already a done deal, which it obviously is not. He then continues by recounting about his (first) visit to the permanent exhibit at HDKE in the beginning of the year, saying “I have notified a representative of the HDKE that part of the exhibit has to be reassessed, because it is set up in such a way that Horthy marching into various cities and regions is depicted…there is no causal connection between the return of Hungarian-inhabited areas to Hungary and Regent Miklós Horthy and the Hungarian army marching in, on the one hand, and on the other hand, the subsequent death marches in which people were being herded into their deaths. This is the sort of skewed take on history that gives rise to unnecessary tension.” He then goes on to cite some of his readings from Sándor Márai: “Unfortunately, there were many of those who, in coveting the valuables of wealthy Jewish citizens, thereby steered Hungary—a country deprived of its legal capacity—in the direction of depravity…for on March 19, 1944, German troops declared the takeover of a puppet government”.

The “skewed take on history” in all this is easy to detect, yet we do regret that the State Secretary does not reveal who those are in whom the exhibit “gives rise to unnecessary tension”—besides himself, of course. The curator of the exhibit in question, Judit Molnár, who is also the Lead Historian of HDKE, confirmed our impression that the exhibit does not depict a direct connection among the various “marches” illustrated by photographs: for example, the soldiers of the 1918 Revolution marching, Horthy’s march into cities, gendarmes marching, as well as labor servicemen, Germans, Arrow-Cross men and Jewish women marching. The exhibit merely suggests that dramatic “marching” was a characteristic of Hungary during that era. Discovering a direct causal connection in all this constitutes distorted interpretation.

And with respect to the Hungarian state’s lack of legal capacity after March 19, 1944, and its “puppet government”, it is well to note the historical fact that—granting that pressure from the Germans was escalating—it was not the “German troops” that appointed the Sztójay government, but it was Horthy, who retained his office (opposing the Germans’ choice of Imrédy, selecting Sztójay instead) who appointed the new government, which was then authorized by the Hungarian Parliament. Changes in top positions within the public administration also took place with Horthy’s consent, including the appointment of internal state secretaries László Endre and László Baky, who, among other things, went on to cooperate with Eichmann and play a crucial role in the deportations. Eichmann’s Hungarian commando had relatively few members, and the occupying German troops were moving with the front lines: the execution of the ghettoization of Jews and their subsequent deportation (with the exception of Jews in Budapest) was thus due to about 200,000 (!) Hungarians working in public administration, public security and other areas. And the Hungarian government was certainly not a “puppet” in that in July 1944, Horthy managed to stop the deportations, deciding that to be the best course of action at that later point. But by then, over 400,00 Hungarian Jews were already sent to extermination camps (quite unlike in Southern Transylvania, an area that did not “return” to Hungary, and where the Hungarian discrimination acts and regulations did not become effective).

It is hard not to notice behind the public administration secretary’s reasoning the intention that is already familiar from other sources: it is the Arrow Cross and certain “depraved individuals” whom we should hold responsible for the Hungarian Holocaust, while we should absolve Horthy and the political class behind him of such responsibility. Yet throughout the entire era, the population was being steeped into and being accustomed to discriminatory thinking, to the idea of regarding certain groups within society as inferior, and eventually to deporting them into their deaths. It is this process that is depicted by the Holocaust Memorial Center’s internationally acclaimed exhibit that was the result of extensive preparation and professional debates and whose primary target audience is today’s youth. The exhibition plan was developed by historians like Gábor Kádár and Zoltán Vági, under the direction of László Karsai, while participating consultants included István Deák, Mária Ormos, Sándor Radnóti and Krisztián Ungváry,” Népszabadság Online [Trans.: a major Hungarian daily newspaper] reports.

someone

hsan, Thank you. THe whole thing sounded so absurd to me, and the only thing that proved that something must be up was Johnny Boy's senseless comments, but I a just did not get it until I read your quotes
- "it wants to “place in the government’s hands” the research aspect of Jewish compensation issues that are still pending, taking over from the Hungarian Jewish Heritage Public Foundation (MAZSÖK Foundation), " So, number one is that Orban needs more money than the money he confiscated from the pensions.
- " the State Secretary wants to change a certain part of the Memorial Center’s permanent exhibition covering the Hungarian Holocaust" I guess if we cannot change history, they will rewrite the books. Rakosi could learn a thing or two from Orban and his gang. (Orban is learning from the Chinese about democracy and freedom as we discuss this. Johnny Boy is about to sign up for the exchange program to China to honour Orban's new efforts for a free, honest Hungary.)

Johnny Boy

"No lies here from the Professor"

Maybe no lies. Only low-standard, unfounded, marginal insinuations all over the place, as usual.

Johnny Boy

"the only thing that proved that something must be up was Johnny Boy's senseless comments"

Lol, I never thought I could be a so important point of orientation.
But I didn't even touch the topic of the Holocaust center, so I frankly don't know where you take your disturbed thoughts from.
To clear things up, however, I must add that as long as you are chewing on such gum bones as this, you don't have time to take any detrimental actions.

peter litvanyi

Frankly, I think it is time that someone /our people or an international organization of historians/ buys the Museum. Or at least it's content. More exactly the Hungarian State should donate the material back free; it has been on a loan of good will to them /how I look at it/. That Museum should not be in Hungary any more. Any ideas, you guys out there?
We the second generation did not forget.
One more word: so far Mr. Orban was my political enemy. If he crosses that particular line: delete the word "political" from the description.
Peter Litvanyi

someone

Johnny Boy: " I never thought I could be a so important point of orientation." Oh yes you are. Fools rush in Johnny Boy, and you always do, so we know that Eva hot the nail on the head.

" I must add that as long as you are chewing on such gum bones as this, you don't have time to take any detrimental actions." Again, no one can understand what a heck you are talking about.

GJ

As it stands, the HDKE permanent exhibition proved unpalatable because it was overseen by historians who have dedicated their professional lives to researching the Holocaust. The Secretary of State disputed historical fact. A shift of emphasis is to be expected, which would entail moving the focus from legal measures enacted by the Hungarian state and the Roma Holocaust, toward forced labour and individuals who saved Jews. All are easily verifiable; the point is the focus.

 Eva S. Balogh

GJ: "toward forced labour and individuals who saved Jews. All are easily verifiable; the point is the focus."

Sure. Individuals who saved Jews. But the numbers are insignificant in comparison to the inactive or the outright antagonistic. It will be very difficult to switch gear.

lazam

How many Hungarians saved Jews? Well, I know about thousands of happy citizens who celebrated and asked for Jewish property (houses, shops etc...)
Hungarians should face their nazi past. Instead, this government is proud of this past as we learnt from the new Constitution.

Monday night Kovacs Zoltan told in Washington DC (Kossuth House) that in the 20th century Holocaust was the tragedy of the Jews, Trianon was the tragedy of the Hungarians.

Well if this is an official government statement, we can't be surprised if the Second Vienna Award and Horthy pics are being removed from the walls.

I thought that the Holocaust was the tragedy of the Hungarians as well, as those Jews were Hungarians.

Johnny Boy

"One more word: so far Mr. Orban was my political enemy. If he crosses that particular line: delete the word "political" from the description."

Excellent description of your true self:
1. enemy, not opponent;
2. all-around enemy anyway.

You should go to Gaza and face the Palestinians, they treat you the way you should be. Why stay here?

Johnny Boy

"Hungarians should face their nazi past"

Just as you should your communist past.
For the nazis, at least there was a Nuremberg trial. I hope we get to hold the same for the communists one day.

lazam

Johnny Boy
There was no Nuremberg Trial for those thousands of Hungarians who shipped Jews to Auschwitz. I do not even wish a trial, I just want school classes to visit Pava utca as part of their Curriculum and do not want to read antisemitic trash from people close to Fidesz (Bayer, Makovetz) and would like to see Viktor Orban speak up when his friends are bashing Jews.
What do you mean "your communist". I am not that age group. And do not compare, this argument belongs to the typical Holocaust denial propaganda machine.

someone

Johnny Boy: You are such a hypocrite, you always bring up how OTHERS (not you of course) accuse people or name call (not you), and so forth, but over and over again, here you come, and when you run out of reason and facts (you do not have to much from that to begin with) you start the name calling and accusations. Get a hold of yourself buddy, you are not at dinner in your home or on a Jobbik/Fidesz function. If you do not like what you see here, start your own board (and let see how many of the posters form here would visit. The responses that come up here for your nonsense is not for you, but to put things into perspective to those who visit this board.

someone

I agree with Johnny Boy on one fact, we need more trial and investigation for taxpayers money about people who support the Communist Regimes and openly endorse their doings or support those who do. Exchange program with communist China would be a good start as that is not from the past but current choice of certain people without duress.

Johnny Boy

lazam: you still don't get it.
You generally refer to Hungarians as offenders of nazi crimes, and as an answer I mention communists. And your arguments typically belong to the gulag relativizers and communist offenders.

I am neither that age group that could be held responsible for the nazi crimes, yet you address me too.

And I indeed compare. By considering the Holocaust more serious than all others, you prove you don't care for other genocides and you think your pain is superior to others. I could call you nazi for that. You think you are superior. But you are not.

lazam

Johnny Boy: I did not say that Hungarians are Nazis, I said that Hungarians should face their Nazi past. Instead of glorifying Horthy, the Second Vienna Award, the gendarmerie and the Waffen SS (see Fidesz celebration in the Castle in February), Fidesz and the country should face the responsibility and crime of these organizations and Horthy. If you play with fire and do not educate about the Holocaust, Jobbik will take your votes at the next elections. Viktor Orban should detach himself from the Bayers and Makoveczs. It is good to work with PR firms and I beleive in the importance of good PR, but even the best PR experts won't be able to help the country if the government does not separate itself from antisemitism.
Let me quote Pastor Martin Niemoller:
"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

Johnny Boy

lazam: I am Hungarian and I do not have a Nazi past.
How do you explain that?

Also, I understand you would very much like to see Bayer and Makovecz cast out but they're not anti-Semites, whatever label you try to stick on them, so that's not going to happen. Get used to the fact that it's not you deciding who will get cast out and who won't.

Mutt Damon

"I am Hungarian and I do not have a Nazi past."

... but you have a Nazi future ... same thing.

lazam

Johnny Boy: Yes, you do not have a Nazi past, but if you identify with Horthy, the gendarmerie and the Waffen SS, I am afraid that you are creating a Nazi present.
If you think that Bayer and Makovecz are not anti-Semites, I wonder what is your definition for that word. I just tried to explain that it is very bad for your party and government and even if you do not care about the feelings of Hungarian Jews around the world, at least think about your own interests.

kis fiu

Is it that difficult? Lets see, Rakosi was a Hungarian and Horthy was a Hungarian and they were both in charge of Hungary. Does this mean that the Hungarian political class was responsible for both men?

If the Hungarian political class had more input in selecting one of these two men (can you guess which one JB?) then the other, then it stands to reason that the Hungarian political class as a whole is more responsible for the actions the one chosen.

If you say fascist Germany and communist Soviet Union were equally evil I could agree with you. But Hungary took part in (at least some) the sins of one (again can you guess which one?) willingly. Therefore in a Hungarian museum and on a Hungarian blog it makes sense to dwell on those mistakes of the Hungarian people (ie political class) rather the those mistakes of Soviet dictators so that those mistakes can be avoided in the future.

kis fiu

By the way, please dont read my comment as trying to white wash the actions of the Soviets are their puppets. I just dont think the Hungarian people had much of a choice in selecting Rakosi or Kadar. On the other hand, the Hungarian political class obviously was responsible for the first anti-Jewish legislation in europe (Numerus Clausus) and for the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Jews. (It stands to reason that If Horthy could stop the deportations in 1944 then he could have stopped them earlier as well.)

This doesnt mean that Hungarians today are responsible, but they are being extremely childish and dishonest if they pretend that all that "unpleasantness" was caused by the Germans or when they try and change the subject by claiming someone else was worse.

Ivan

"I understand you would very much like to see Bayer and Makovecz cast out but they're not anti-Semites, whatever label you try to stick on them, so that's not going to happen." - Johnny Boy

Okay. Right. So could you please definitively explain how the following is NOT anti-semitic:

"Unfortunately, they were not all buried up to their necks in the forest of Orgovány." - Zsolt Bayer

peter litvanyi

Dear "mutt" and "lazam", thank you both.
For Mutt let me send you some words from Berki Judit:

http://chachorom.nolblog.hu/archives/2011/04/23/Berki_Judit_A_Haza_minden_joerzesu_polgarahoz_szolok/ or
http://www.nol.hu/belfold/_cigany_vagyok__oruletesek_a_mindennapok__
How can we help her?

For lazam:
"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."
One of my favourite quotations and therefore let me repeat it.
No, my late father would have never accepted my suggestion about relocating the Museum. We disagreed at times.
Thanks:
Peter Litvanyi

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