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« Language can be tricky: A return to László Kövér's speech | Main | Criticism from the right: The Orbán-Matolcsy economic policy is a failure »

August 25, 2011

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Wondercat

Ah, Dr Balogh -- WHERE is the link to the Hungarian-language original text? How can I share this with friends?

oneill

"freedom of the press, constitution, human rights, and the checks and balances that control the executive branch’s power."

If the Orban regime does fall within the next two decades I guarantee you that it will not be for any of those reasons simply because the people for whom those issues are important comprise a miniscule proportion of the electorate.

If Orban were to promise that a space-ship would be landing at Hosok Tere tomorrow and furthermore it would be dispensing forints to deserving Hungarians, then a depressingly large number of people would be there waiting for it impatiently in line.

That's the reality Civic Control and the other opposition movements (if they even justify the label) have to contend with. Orban's ridiculous promises are still believed even by those with more than the requisite number of brain cells to permit critical thinking. I still remember deconstructing his pension promises last year, not to a homeless alcoholic but to someone in middle management in a bank ("if he takes you private pension he will spend it within the next 12 months, in return he is promising you that in 30 years time he will guarantee you a state pension when in all likelihood the number of over 60s will heavily outnumber the working population. How will he do that?"). This person had two degrees, a Phd and intellectually was operating in a different league to me but still he was arguing that giving his hard won savings back to the state made sense.

Kirsten

"the people for whom those issues are important comprise a miniscule proportion of the electorate."

I am afraid that you are right but it still makes sense to offer alternative political platforms. Just in case people start to get interested or in general for political (and democratic) education. Even if the number of active participants will be lower than the 1 million, if acquaintance with democratic processes is as low as we must suspect currently, some grassroot work on what OV is doing, and whether he will really unselfishly care for all Hungarian subjects has its value. And if the agony today is related to the too moderate political transition in the 1990s, during which expectations were mainly disappointed, this also needs to be worked up.

 Eva S. Balogh

Wondercat: "WHERE is the link to the Hungarian-language original text? How can I share this with friends?"

I received the ready translation from one of the organizers. According to him the original appeared in the Tuesday edition of Népszabadság.

Johnny Boy

Don't you get bored of this?
A weekly letter or call for democracy. (That is, "we want power back!")

I'm already bored reading the same lunacy every week...

link

Link to the original text in Hungarian
http://nol.hu/lap/forum/20110822-demokraciat

Johnny Boy:
No we are not getting bored of it.
"The time has come to stand up for democracy in Hungary!

We come from every corner of the world.

We do not believe in media censorship.
We do not believe in forced labor.
We do not believe in limits on religious freedom.
We do not believe in political witch-hunts.
We do not believe in retroactive laws.
We do not believe in limits on the rights of the accused.

We believe in democracy, and we stand united in support of true democracy in Hungary."

Odin's lost eye

Link You wrote
** “
We do not believe in media censorship.
We do not believe in forced labour.
We do not believe in limits on religious freedom
We do not believe in political witch-hunts.
We do not believe in retroactive laws.
We do not believe in limits on the rights of the accused.” **

So do I. Unfortunately out private troll –Johnny Boy- and his ‘Mighty Leader’ (Orban Viktor) DO believe in all these things. They DO believe in media censorship, forced labour, retroactive laws etc. Unfortunately most of the things they believe in are contrary to the European Charter of Human Rights, but no Hungarian will take them to the ECHR (yet).

The Hungarians are mesmerised by the dreams of once great (but non-existent) glorious nation. It is a pipe dream, like the prat who wrote in this blog some years ago ** “That the Slovenian drill rig crews would drill for gas for nothing if they were asked to do so in the name of the ‘Holy Crown’” **. ‘What a ‘Loonie’!

Hungary has produced and fallen for, some of the world’s greatest cheats, swindlers and ‘con artists’ and the present generation is no exception.

I was asked by an old friend of mine in the U.K. about a contract there were about to sign with a Hungarian cereal feed stock company. They asked me ‘would the proposed supplier try to cheat on quality’. My reply was you have asked the wrong question. You should have asked not ‘would they cheat’, but ‘when would they cheat’. The idiot suppliers tried it on the very first (sample) load. It was rejected and sent back. It was two tonnes short on weight and contained an estimated 15 % dust, soil, bits of brick etc.

O’Neill you wrote ** “If Orban were to promise that a space-ship would be landing at Hosok Tere tomorrow and furthermore it would be dispensing forints to deserving Hungarians, then a depressingly large number of people would be there waiting for it impatiently in line.” **.

Yes and I suspect that most of his ministers would be there at the head of that line.

Paul

JB, it's ‘WITH this’, not ‘of this’. I’ve pointed this out several times before.


And if only it were just once a week! We seem to be getting this pointless intellectual masturbation every few days at the moment.

Can't these people see that we KNOW what's wrong with OV and Fidesz, we KNOW what they are up to and how they plan to (and will) achieve it. What we need to discuss is what to DO about it.

At this rate the day will dawn when all the intellectuals and philosophers on the left have finally discussed every last detail, dotted every last i and crossed every last t, and know exactly what's wrong with OV and Fidesz and what they are planning to do.

And then they'll look up from their open letters, Facebook pages, blogs, conferences and (occasional) demonstrations, and realise, with genuine shock, that OV and Fidesz have already DONE it and it's too late. The Thousand Year Reich is in place.

OV must be laughing himself silly every time one of these things is published. He knows it amounts to nothing, he knows the intellectual 'opposition' can (and will) do nothing. But, more importantly, he knows that it gives him all the time he needs to get his system firmly in place – with no effective opposition while he is doing it.

While the thinkers and talkers prevaricate, the doers DO. And OV is a doer.


oneill

I am afraid that you are right but it still makes sense to offer alternative political platforms. Just in case people start to get interested or in general for political (and democratic) education.


I don't argue that it's important for the long term Kirsten but something is needed for the present. If the regime does fall it will be more than likely that the JObbik fascists will be the ones who will have taken most advantage from any pulic disillusionment with Orban. How do the liberal intelligentia plan to avoid that possibility?

It's perhaps approaching the time when more direct action is required- and by that I don't mean violence but more along the lines of civil disobedience provoking Orban and his goons into inevitable overeaction. It's easy saying that from behind the safety of a keyboard but what is needed most now is a shake out of apathy.

Johnny Boy

Paul.
You pointed this out ONCE, and as a response I pointed out that both forms (with or of) are in use...
So I suggest we let this debate settle. Ok?

"And if only it were just once a week! We seem to be getting this pointless intellectual masturbation every few days at the moment."

Couldn't agree more with you on this one!

"Can't these people see that we KNOW what's wrong with OV and Fidesz, we KNOW what they are up to and how they plan to (and will) achieve it. What we need to discuss is what to DO about it."

The problems begin when you really believe all this 'pointless intellectual masturbation', though I'm very reluctant to call it intellectual...

We in Hungary have an anecdote in which a woman always cried for help, claiming her house was burning. People repeatedly rushed to her help, only to find that there was nothing wrong with her house.
And, once upon a time, when her house was really burning, no one (see? I learn) was there to help because people got bored of the false alarms and simply didn't care.

This is what is happening now. Nothing is violating people's human rights, in spite of what happened in the Gyumurcsány era, I must add - where were these outcriers then? (I know... in well-paid government jobs, that's where) - and all this masturbation was also omnipotent during Orbán's first tenure.

What out of all this was true?
Nothing.
Just like today.

That's why this is not only boring but ridiculous. "A kutya ugat, a karaván halad" - Dog is barking, caravan is marching.

florian

I agree with Paul. I am reliably informed that Hungarians are almost as good as the French at discussing things to the utmost degree without actually getting down to some useful action. Stop talking and start doing- Please?!

Paul

JB - "bored OF the false alarms" (etc) may indeed be in general use, but it is still wrong.

It stems from a misunderstanding by the uneducated that the spoken "bored'v" equated with the written "bored of" (as 'of' is pronounced as 'ov', not 'of'), when it obviously should have (should'v - should of!) been "bored with".

This has developed into a general assumption that this switch from ‘with' to 'of' could be applied in all such cases, whether it made any sense or not.

Now, I know that language evolves (especially English!), and that this is precisely how this often happens – mistakes becoming common and eventually being accepted as legitimate. And one day ‘bored of’ will be reluctantly accepted because the battle for accuracy has been conceded to the uneducated masses. But this hasn’t yet happened, and hopefully we are still some years from this travesty.

So, for now, if you use this construction, those of us who speak English to a reasonable standard will automatically know that you are either not a native speaker, or thick.

Or quite possibly both.

peter litvanyi

"We come from every corner of the world.

We do not believe in media censorship.
We do not believe in forced labor.
We do not believe in limits on religious freedom.
We do not believe in political witch-hunts.
We do not believe in retroactive laws.
We do not believe in limits on the rights of the accused.
We believe in democracy, and we stand united in support of true democracy in Hungary."

Thanks dear "link". Count me in. I fully agree with the open letter posted by Eva.

Dear Paul; be there on the 15th and whatever you are thinking. Some people are actually "doing it": how about Tetenyi Eva? Just an example. Never give it up bro! Don't be such a sourpuss.
Dear "Odin's":
"Hungary has produced and fallen for, some of the world’s greatest cheats, swindlers and ‘con artists’ and the present generation is no exception." Ughuuum; how about the "Iron Lady" or the Next One? Nothing personal here; I could pull up Ronnie or G.W. in a heartbeat. Yet you are right; we are up there. We may even get the Silver /not too shabby for such a small country/.
I am asking everyone friends here: please support the "Egymillionyian a Demokraciaert". If you happen to be in the vicinity: go and demonstrate on the 15th.
Sincerely:
Peter Litvanyi

Paul

OV will ignore the demo.

He has his "two-thirds" mandate from The People. Why should he worry about the Budapesti liberals and communists? They can do nothing to stop him.

But, by all means demonstrate, if nothing else it makes you feel better (I should know, I went on enough during Thatcher's time!). Just don't stop.

If OV is to be stopped, we need a constant series of 'events': demos, court cases, strikes, sit-ins, civil disobedience, etc - all designed to attract foreign media attention.

And if that doesn't work, 'we' (i.e. you) will have to be prepared to up the anti. We're going to need Amnesty complaining about human rights abuses, editors being jailed, protestors being beaten up, and probably a lot worse before OV starts to feel real pressure.

And the longer you leave it, the harder the fight will be.

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