Search

  • Google

    WWW
    esbalogh.typepad.com

News around the World

  • Pusztaranger: Neues aus Ungarn
    An excellent German-language blog on Hungary
  • Galamus-Csoport
    A Hungarian-language internet paper. News and opinions by leading Hungarian commentators. galamus.hu
  • JeToTak
    A Slovak website that provides readers with analyses and commentaries on domestic and world events. The language is Slovak, but the editors are experimenting with the introduction of some English language items, including selected articles from Hungarian Spectrum.

« Jobbik's Gábor Vona tells all: they are the enemies of democracy | Main | János Kornai on centralization and decentralization. Part II »

January 30, 2012

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00e009865ae58833016300672c9a970d

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference János Kornai on centralization and decentralization. Part I:

Comments

Sandor

Kornai, all his authority notwithstanding, is missing two points, both more important then his reasons against the pyramid model. In fact his touchy-feely reasoning, although valid, is not hitting the actual mark.
The first and greatest problem of the autocratic model is that the man on the top is not bound by the principles of efficiency, not even that of economy. He can make decisions for whatever goals and wether they are practical, or not, doesn't matter, because his goals may not coincide with the goals of society. This is definitely the case with Orban, he is not working on the economy, but on his power.
The other missed point is the lack of consideration required by the quality of people necessary to make such model work. Ideally drones without any will are the ideal staff, but that is almost always in short supply. Most of the apparatchiks are either too ambitious, or too inert, both are endangering the success of the organization. This leads then to the well known ubiquity of counter-selection that eventually permeates the organization and destroys it from within.

Ron

After reading this article, I found an article on Caboodle.hu, which is a typical example of centralized decision and its effects. This is about a special tax implemented for cars in Budapest in the amount of HUF 10,000 to cover the costs of the public transport. What is interesting are the reactions of the people implementing this tax.

http://www.caboodle.hu/nc/news/news_archive/single_page/article/11/plans_for_ne/?cHash=8cb07f7914

sackhoes contributor

This discussion takes me back to 80's and 90's, when there was a great deal of discussion about organizational structures. We did not call it "vertical" or "horizontal", because we all knew that every organization was a pyramid. The real question was: how flat was an organization?

Depending on the type of organization (manufacturing, creative, etc) management gurus tried to come up with a "magic number". 7 was touted to be the average. 7 direct reports to a manager was deemed to be ideal. It gave the manager enough time to be a direct contributor, while reserved enough time to deal with the work related personal issues of 7 subordinates (who may, in turn have 7 direct reports each).

The management challenge was to find ways to "flatten the organization", i.e. have not 7 but say 10 direct reports. This meant fewer managers, less cost overhead. But it also meant less hands-on, direct contact with subordinates, less supervision, more risk.

I guess I really don't understand how a "horizontal" organization works.

Ron

sackhoes contributor: I guess I really don't understand how a "horizontal" organization works.

A "perfect" horizontal organisation, as far as I know does not exists. However, a matrix organization comes close.

Shell use to have a very bureaucratic structure, and they were forced to move closer to a matrix organization.

See this pfd file re. the Shell case:
http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/grant/docs/07Shell.pdf

Ron

Regarding my comment earlier regarding Tarlos and the car BKV charge of HUF 10,000.

Yesterday, on egyenes beszed was an interview with Tarlos, in which he claims that Rogan was undermining his position, due to the fact he want to become the next Head Mayor.

http://atv.hu/cikk/video-20120130_tarlos_istvan

Eva: The inaccurate information is not always accidental. It can be deliberate.

So besides misinforming the Boss to prevent problems, it may also be to put him/her in a bad light so that she/he will be sacked, and the person can take over.

riviera1

@Ron and misinformation & Hungarians..

Multiply that by 20 and you come close to the possible mutations of Hungarian betrayal--they have a genius for back-stabbing.

Leo

@Eva: Centralization works against diversity. The beauty of life is variegation. Not all students should be taught the same thing. And although it might be cheaper to produce fabric in a single colour, people like to dress in clothes of many colours.

Well, do they? People love fashion too. And uniforms. But it is true that this touches the heart of the problem. We are, I think, not talking here about which scheme will give us a perfect state bureaucracy, but about the question which aspects of society such an organisation should govern.

The extreme right says: all. Because it is afraid of diversity; they fear everything they do not understand or cannot control. Moreover, it is almost impossible for them to live & let live. Their idea of the truth (God, Nation) is of a higher nature and must prevail. Whatever the cost. Essentially Fidesz is not about anti-communism, but about anti-liberalism. And its weapon of choice is the authoritarian state.

Vona said it well (I quote from yesterday’s Contrarian Hungarian): Jobbik’s spiritual centre is the Holy Crown that embodies Hungarian statehood … Jobbik does not only want to feed every Hungarian person, but to exert a “binding force on politics” through this form of thinking.
That binding force is what matters here. In Jobbiks opinion people must conform to (their idea of) the Nation, otherwise they will not be fed (meaning that they will be thrown out of society in one way or another).

That is poison. And I see no real difference between Fidesz and Jobbik here. The Fidesz brand is somewhat more diluted, but essentially it is the same stuff. The problem for the outside world is to decide the importance of the difference between the soft and the hard drug. Tactically that is not easy, because even if Fidesz and Jobbik march in the same direction, there is a real power struggle between them.

B.t.w. there was more news about uniforms. Since the judges decided that para-military formations are (essentially) allowed in Hungary, it will be interesting to see what happens next. When will Orbán give Vona the one or two smacks in the face he promised them? My guess is that he will wait a bit to give the Garda some room to frighten Europe. And to chase any remaining democrats from the streets.

Mutt Damon

Centralization or horizontal it comes down to skills. The most important skill is to replicate the pyramid under you. In other words picking the right people who can pick the right people and so on. After a while it becomes a flying blind experience and all you can do is trusting the autopilots. The real skill on the top is building the pyramid.

The authoritative micromanaging is compensating for this team building skill. The "of course there are mistakes - I can't do everything myself" attitude is clearly for masking incompetence.

Also Orban is clearly driven by ideology. If you don't build your hierarchy on common sense but "political trustworthiness" the result is the same. A bunch of mediocre contra-selected middle managers. And when you feel you didn't choose the right people then the paranoia kicks in. The constant fear that your subordinates will screw you over.

Orban has no idea what a Prime Minister should do.

Ron

Yesterday, Hungary and 24 other EU members signed the German-led fiscal treaty. And again Hungary is against something. This time how to treat the youth unemployment.

http://www.euractiv.com/euro-finance/25-eu-countries-sign-german-led-fiscal-treaty-news-510489

Odin's Lost Eye

Ron I should not worry about that. Hungary seems to regard treaties as ‘scraps of paper’ which can be ignored at will. See the three EU complaints against Hungary and the Hungarian appeals court ruling on para-militaries wearing uniforms and doing ‘military drills’.

Hungary’s solemn pledges are worthless!

kormos

"Hungary’s solemn pledges are worthless!"

Odin!This problem has become the norm lately. Show me one government which keeps pledges.
You worry too much about about things you cannot control.

Mutt Damon

@kormos Oh, I so love this comparisons. Joe is big on these. Like Hitler and Leonardo were very similar. They were both painters.

Please show us example of other governments breaking pledges and don't forget to add why is that making the Orban government's actions totally OK.

Paul (the original one!)

For most of my career I was a business analyst.

During that time, I saw many fads come and go, and more theories on organisational structure, etc, than I can remember. Some had more value than others, but they all missed the most important point - people.

The one 'rule' for running an organisation well that I determined in over 30 years experience was the only thing that really matters is getting the right people. With the right people in the right places, the organisation will succeed. With the wrong people it will be dysfunctional and will struggle to survive.

If you get the right person at the top/centre of an organisation - someone with a clear vision of what they are doing, who is determined, who can communicate, who can 'handle' people, and who can find and develop the right people to work under/with them - then, despite almost anything else, that organisation will prosper.

Management techniques, organisational structures, systems theories, etc can play their part, and can produce improvements, but only marginally. It is the person at the top, and the people they employ that counts.

The centralisation/decentralisation argument is fairly irrelevant. As we say in the UK, it's 'horses for courses'. A good boss will tend to create a flatter, more decentralised organisation anyway, but sometimes a centralised approach is the better (even only) way of running a project of company.

For instance, compare the railway infrastructures of the UK with many European countries. Unlike the centrally planned systems in other countries, the UK's railway 'system' is a mess because it was built entirely in a decentralised way - lines literally competing against each other. Three different routes to the North (even three different routes to Brighton!), and bizarre situations like the Isle of Wight (pop. 140,500), where Ventnor had two different railway stations, connected by competing lines to Newport, just 8 miles away! (Both lines failed, needless to say.)

And, although Google, has a very decentralised structure, Apple was a very centrally controlled company. Steve Jobs micro-managed the entire enterprise. It will be interesting to see how well Apple does without Jobs.

This is not to argue against much of what Éva/Kornai say, the article makes many good points – especially about the tendency of authoritarian ‘bosses’ to put ineffective lackeys under/around them, so that a culture of fear, misinformation and inertia develops. But the key is still the person/people running the organisation.

For instance, imagine that Orbán was a competent, capable man, in power for the right reason and equipped with the right skills to do the job. How would Fidesz and Hungary then function? He would have a clear vision, he would create a flatter, more decentralised structure, he would be prepared to listen, he would employ capable, innovative people in key positions, he would communicate clearly and honestly – he would succeed.

Hungary’s problem is not the organisational structure of party or government, it is the person at the top, and the people he has chosen to work under him.

kormos

@Mutt
It is a futile discussion. You know, I could ask the same question back, using your counterargument logic. Anyway, which government's actions are totally OK?

Mutt Damon

@Kormos Actually you asked "show me one government which keeps pledges." so I tried "counterargument logic" ... :-)

What is futile is you guys justifying everything the FIDESZ does. let it be the most blatant attack on civil liberties, with something similar you saw in another country. About a dozen people said this already, but we "don't give a flying fook", as Johnny Boy eloquently put it once. We want hour homeland to return to the democracy. It's a quite interesting logic saying, that all government actions are controversial to a certain degree, so why bother about Orban's actions, say taking over the control over the judiciary . Are you actually serious, or just pulling my leg?

I love Hungary

This explains why FIDESZ should never be called a "conservative" group.

Right wing, yes but "conservative"????? Not even close.

kormos

@ Mutt: I addressed my remark to Odin, but it is OK that you contested my remark.
I am quite serious and a lot more cynical.Despite that I am a law-abiding citizen.
Democracy (just like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.

Mutt Damon

@Kormos "Democracy (just like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder"

I take Cindy Crawford. You have fun with Rozsa Hoffmann.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment